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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    I see it more as an advertisement for the book. Media sensationlism sells. If you read the article the "spying" is tracking limited international e-mail/phone calls in an effort to thwart terrorism. People b*tch if someone is apprehended and interrogated for being suspected of terrorism, they b*itch if the gov't makes it harder for someone to enter the country, they b*tch if a possible terror suspect is tracked through e-mail traffic, and I guarentee they will be the first to b*itch if a terrorist strikes in their town/city/state, complaining on how the administration did not do enough to prevent it.
    Cardio....I tend to side with your post.

    The article said it could have been hundreds or thousands of people. According to the CIA there are 295,734,134 (July 2005 est.) legal citizens in the USA right now. Add on another up to 12-20 million illegal aliens, that makes about nearly 316,000,000 people. Now, if we take the high end of the worst case scenario "thousands" in the article and call it 8,000 people. That is 0.0000253968254% of the population. To me that does not sound excessive.

    I agree that the Partiot Act could use fine tuning, as was promise when it was first approved. But with the fact of how long the NYT times sat on the this story and given the timing of releasing it, there is little doubt that they are trying to play to their own tune for their own purposes. Whether that is promoting a book, selling more papers, or advancing a personal political agenda....who knows. But the fact is if their sole interest was to share news to enlighten the public, this story would have been published a year ago and given time to debate charges in it and to fix it prior to the voting for it again.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 12/16/2005 at 05:52 PM.
  2. #82  
    I like your thinking Hobbes. I thought the issue wasn't that it was some random 8,000 people but rather that it was a very specific and targeted group of people who focused on (which makes sense in the way that if you are going to do it, you want to make sure you get the bang for your buck so to speak.)

    So while I agree that if it's in the thousands, it's really not that many people in the grand scheme of things but it would be very interesting to see who is on the list ;-)
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    #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I like your thinking Hobbes. I thought the issue wasn't that it was some random 8,000 people but rather that it was a very specific and targeted group of people who focused on (which makes sense in the way that if you are going to do it, you want to make sure you get the bang for your buck so to speak.)

    So while I agree that if it's in the thousands, it's really not that many people in the grand scheme of things but it would be very interesting to see who is on the list ;-)
    A snippet from the article

    Since 2002, the agency has been conducting some warrantless eavesdropping on people in the United States who are linked, even if indirectly, to suspected terrorists through the chain of phone numbers and e-mail addresses, according to several officials who know of the operation
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  4. NRG
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       #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Here is a Washington Post graphic detailing how the money was split among Reps, Independents, PACs, and Dems:


    Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...121200286.html
    Hobbes tell me your thoughts on this. Dems took Zero money from Abramoff.

    Click picture.
  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Hobbes tell me your thoughts on this. Dems took Zero money from Abramoff.

    Click picture.
    NRG....I took the time to and research to answer several of your requests in the Coerced thread and never got a response back..... ....but I will still answer here.

    My first couple thoughts:

    1) Dean is a shoot from the hip kind of guy that has tended to exagerate or lean facts to prove a point....which has earned him some criticism from fellow Dems in the recent past.

    2) First of all this is an on going investigation. There may be more or less Dems added to the list. I think that also the Washington Post would be interested in seeing how their current investigation is fraudulent and false.

    3) He used clever language like: "There's no evidence that I've seen that Jack Abramoff directed any contributions to Democrats". This is a plausable deniability statement, IMHO.

    4) If Deans statements are taken at face value why then have significant number of Dems return tens of or hundreds of thousands dollars back to the tribes that according to Dean had no relationship with Jack in the very least? That seems like it could be perceived like a got caught with the hand in the cookie jar type of action.

    5) I also found it interesting to watch the interviewer look bewildered and unbelieving with Dean repeatedly saying no Dem had any part whatsoever with Jack.

    NRG....are my points totally off base in your opinion?
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 01/13/2006 at 07:08 PM.
  6. NRG
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       #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    NRG....I took the time to and research to answer several of your requests in the Coerced thread and never got a response back..... ....but I will still answer here.
    Hobbes I can't find that thread, could
    i get a link please?
  7. #88  
    Hi, I am a life long dem. and I have actually been invited to address members of the House on Medicare HMO and medicare reform. All I can say is they all stink, no matter what the party affilation. All they think about themselves. For example. What other job gives you med ins with rx coverage for life!!! AFTER ONLY 5 YEARS???? They have different choices for type of med coverage, here in central fla. MY Congresswoman, Ginny Bown Waite, (who is not of my party's affiation), is getting her RX's for $5 for 90 days and $10 for named RX's for 90 days. yet, they expect those on medicare getting much less income than them, and having on average to need much more RX's to cough up thousands for RX under the new medicare RX coverage program.

    The galling part of all of this is, that when she ran for office for the first time 4 years ago, before she had actually had the job, there were three high quality mailings of brochures indorsing her and talking about the need for medicare RX programs. The brochures were from senor citz groups. It turns out, these were new senors groups, set up by the RX companies, whose only purpise was to get people elected that had the same point of view as the RX industry. But thye packaged it to look like it was a senior's advcote group!! AND it is all legal, immoral yes and legal as well I am afraid!!
    All memebers from all party's need to be kicked out!!!!!! Take care, jay
    Please Support Research into Fibromyalgia, Chronic Pain and Spinal Injuries. If You Suffer from These, Consider Joining or Better Yet Forming a Support Group. No One Should Suffer from the Burden of Chronic Pain, Jay M. S. Founder, Leesburg Fibromyalgia/Resources Group
  8. #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    NRG....are my points totally off base in your opinion?
  9. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal 01/13/2006
    NRG....I took the time to and research to answer several of your requests in the Coerced thread and never got a response back..... ....but I will still answer here.

    My first couple thoughts:

    1) Dean is a shoot from the hip kind of guy that has tended to exagerate or lean facts to prove a point....which has earned him some criticism from fellow Dems in the recent past.

    2) First of all this is an on going investigation. There may be more or less Dems added to the list. I think that also the Washington Post would be interested in seeing how their current investigation is fraudulent and false.

    3) He used clever language like: "There's no evidence that I've seen that Jack Abramoff directed any contributions to Democrats". This is a plausable deniability statement, IMHO.

    4) If Deans statements are taken at face value why then have significant number of Dems return tens of or hundreds of thousands dollars back to the tribes that according to Dean had no relationship with Jack in the very least? That seems like it could be perceived like a got caught with the hand in the cookie jar type of action.

    5) I also found it interesting to watch the interviewer look bewildered and unbelieving with Dean repeatedly saying no Dem had any part whatsoever with Jack.

    NRG....are my points totally off base in your opinion?
    NRG.....don't tell me this is going to be another one of those....Hobbes answer this one....I do, asking your thoughts on my answers to your questions......and never hear from you again situation!?!
  10. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    NRG.....don't tell me this is going to be another one of those....Hobbes answer this one....I do, asking your thoughts on my answers to your questions......and never hear from you again situation!?!
    NRG is good at that, but DA is the absolute master.
  11. #92  
    I know.......Hit and run tactics are so belittling to a discussion........

    If anything, it appears to greatly weaken any present or future arguments that may come along from them about the topic at hand.

    This may be just coincidence, but have notice similar behavior from other far left friends of mine when politics come up (i.e., but look at this....then when presented any counter perspective, no response or change of topic). I also have some very far right friends who almost do the same thing, but at least will confront issues they bring up themselves if pressed.
  12. #93  
    When one defends an indefensible position rooted in emotional rather than logic and facts - well, I guess sometimes it's just easier to declare victory and walk away.
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  13. #94  
    Phurth: you know that is true for both sides. :-)

    It's difficult for anyone to admit or accept something contrary to their beliefs when they were never open to having it challenged in the first place.
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  14. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Phurth: you know that is true for both sides. :-)

    It's difficult for anyone to admit or accept something contrary to their beliefs when they were never open to having it challenged in the first place.
    Certainly that would be true for ideologues on both sides.

    In general I find that (on issues where there are conservative and liberal positions) the conservative position on most issues is supported by facts and logic while the liberal position is mostly an emotional one. Since I am a conservative, I suppose that's no surprise. However, I'll note that I used to be a liberal and eventually became convinced of the error of my ways.
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  15. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Phurth: you know that is true for both sides. :-)

    It's difficult for anyone to admit or accept something contrary to their beliefs when they were never open to having it challenged in the first place.
    I agree.....but I was specifically talking about issues I was asked to comment on that they themselves brought up. When I make points that appear to be contrary to what they intended the point to make.....I never hear anything in response from the points they asked me to make...inspite of several requests for their thoughts on my comments they asked for to begin with....
  16. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Certainly that would be true for ideologues on both sides.

    In general I find that (on issues where there are conservative and liberal positions) the conservative position on most issues is supported by facts and logic while the liberal position is mostly an emotional one. Since I am a conservative, I suppose that's no surprise. However, I'll note that I used to be a liberal and eventually became convinced of the error of my ways.
    I think this would really depend on what the issue is.

    IMO I think it is a mistake to categorize oneself as simply a conservative or a liberal (for starters, does everyone agree what a conservative 'is' and what a liberal 'is'?). When you do that, the implication is that you start from that position and you look at an issue from your conservative (or liberal) base. Just my opinion though.
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  17. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I think this would really depend on what the issue is.

    IMO I think it is a mistake to categorize oneself as simply a conservative or a liberal (for starters, does everyone agree what a conservative 'is' and what a liberal 'is'?). When you do that, the implication is that you start from that position and you look at an issue from your conservative (or liberal) base. Just my opinion though.
    I am a conservative because I agree with the conservative position on most issues. I'm not ashamed of that or afraid to declare that, in general, that's where my views lie. There are conservative and liberal philosophies of government and they both spring from conservative and liberal core values. Obviously not every issue falls neatly into one of those boxes, but core values offer guidance in evaluating them. The mistake, IMO, is not in being "conservative" or "liberal", but in not admitting which biases one holds in the first place. And everyone does have biases.

    Now, I am not a Republican. My allegiance is to those core conservative values, not to a particular political party.
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  18. #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I think this would really depend on what the issue is.

    IMO I think it is a mistake to categorize oneself as simply a conservative or a liberal (for starters, does everyone agree what a conservative 'is' and what a liberal 'is'?). When you do that, the implication is that you start from that position and you look at an issue from your conservative (or liberal) base. Just my opinion though.
    Conservative is easy--but also misleading. People read "fundamentalist" too often. But nobody ever understands what a classical liberal, free-market libertarian with a social conservative bent is.
  19. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    In general I find that (on issues where there are conservative and liberal positions) the conservative position on most issues is supported by facts and logic...
    In that case, Bush must be a Liberal, or which of the following is based on facts and logic, in your view:
    - War against WMD in Iraq
    - Nomination of Harriet Miers
    - Nomination of Michael "Heck of a job" Brown
    - Trust in people like Enron's CEO Ken Lay
    - The "Terry Schiavo is not braindead and may recover" case
    - Support for "Intelligent" Design
    - etc.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
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