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  1. #201  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    None of these apply. You are trying to compare metaphors with examples of those who have no power to those who have power. This I think is an insight into you flawed perspective of the reality of the situation.

    If we were going to use your metaphors it would be like saying the Dems have no power and the Reps have all power. This is false. The Reps have a majority vote. That does not make the Dems powerless. And to think so, I believe is a little naive, or purposely closing your eyes to the fact that the Dems still do have a lot of power for the purpose of finger pointing without personal accountability.

    We are NOT talking about those with absolutely power and those who are helpless with no authority whatsoever (the only arguable exception to this would be the Exec Branch). We are talking about Congress members and Senators. We are talking about those with power and those with less power. But BOTH have power.......unless you are saying being a Senator or a member of Congress is meaningless and only a empty seat if you are not the majority. I would think Boxer, Reed, Howard Dean, Hillary would all be very insulted by this idea that they are powerless warm bodies only there to fill an empty seat and pretend to represent their constituents. They certainly have power and weld it whenever they can, just like any other politician would....
    :
    got to go -- but briefly: ya the dems get better parking spaces, their calls are SOMETIMES returned, and brave lobbyists might give them a small part of their donations.

    But in terms of affecting legistlation, controling rule making and the creation of laws, the enforcement of laws, the interpretation of disputed laws, and appointing the people who will make the rulings that determine who would be elected to the most powerful office in the world --

    ya, the dems have been the choirboys !!
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  2. #202  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    we agree on this part.

    Where we differ is in the depth of accountability and responsibility that accrues from power.

    To continue with the choirboy/Priest metaphor -- if a choirboy were to steal, vandalize church property -- or even commit abuse against a fellow choirboy -- would those crimes be the equal to the same crimes committed by a Priest against the choirboy, over whom the Priest wielded complete power and responsibility ??

    Is there a difference when a common criminal commits murder or steals, versus if a cop commits murder or steals ??

    The repugs manipulated the system (I believe unlawfully, but a separate issue) to consolidate all power, leverage, and money unto themselves.

    Unprecedentedly, they gained control of all levers of government power -- The White House, The Senate, The House, The Courts -- even most of the media.

    They did so with a self righteous piety, and a confidence that they would never again be in the minority.

    There is no equivalence to the crimes committed by those with such absolute power, and those who had none.
    Why is it when Republicans get elected they "gain control", but when socialists/Dems get elected it is the "will of the people"?

    And to think the R's control the media...now that is barking moonbat funny!
  3. #203  
    Barye,

    When you use a word like "Repugs" to whom are you referring?
  4. #204  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Barye,

    When you use a word like "Repugs" to whom are you referring?
    Look in the mirror.
  5. #205  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Look in the mirror.
    Yeah, I was kinda hoping that wasn't the answer.
  6. #206  
    Yeah, he's going to influence a lot of people that way, isn't he?
  7. #207  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Yeah, he's going to influence a lot of people that way, isn't he?
    Well, I certainly hope our friend doesn't think of us as repugnant. And I know many will point to the usage of terms like "democraps" etc. Of course, we all ought to be careful of the terms we use. But its a little disheartening to think he truly believes we're... I'm repugnant.
  8. #208  
    Hoovs, you're manifesting Republican Nice Guy Syndrome. Bayre is not our friend. The policies he advocates have destroyed the inner city and the minority family. His ilk would leave us undefended in the face of Islamofascists, would tax producers into poverty, squelch dissent, and govern by judicial fiat. He projects when he speaks of "Repugs".
  9. #209  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Hoovs, you're manifesting Republican Nice Guy Syndrome. Bayre is not our friend. The policies he advocates have destroyed the inner city and the minority family. His ilk would leave us undefended in the face of Islamofascists, would tax producers into poverty, squelch dissent, and govern by judicial fiat. He projects when he speaks of "Repugs".
    Your assessment of Leftist policies is true enough... and well spoken. But BARYE seems like a nice enough fellow. True, he's not my friend insomuch as we don't really know each other. But, with regard to intentions, he deserves the benefit of the doubt. Until I'm proven wrong, I'll treat him as most of the other Left-leaning folks on this board: well-meaning but wrong. Just as, I assume, they think of me. That being said, describing me as repugnant because I'm a Republican is really pushing the boundaries of good intentions.
  10. #210  
    Barye and I spar it out over and over again....and one reason that I do, is that he occasionally will recognize when he is wrong. And so will I. That makes for a positive debating atomosphere.

    And since he is wrong 97.5% of the time....we agree with common views 2% of the time....that makes me right 99.5% of the time when we debate!
  11. #211  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Why is it when Republicans get elected they "gain control", but when socialists/Dems get elected it is the "will of the people"?

    And to think the R's control the media...now that is barking moonbat funny!
    even beyond Faux news, literally now an arm of this White House -- the MSM treated junior with silk gloves.

    Compare Clinton's early hellfest where he was clobbered daily over fictional misdeeds named: White Water, Travel Gate, The Rose Law Firm's missing records, the money made in futures trading, Foster's suicide --

    all of that was crap, but the press was RELENTLESS in attacking attacking attacking him day after day after day -- whether he was home, or traveling abroad and meeting with a foriegn leader.

    junior's administration which has been gratuitously corrupt, was in comparison practically given a free ride until this year.

    NBC in particular, but even CNN and the other networks, noticably altered the skeptism of their coverage apparently in reaction to rise of Faux news and the right. This predated in my view, 9/11.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  12. #212  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Barye,

    When you use a word like "Repugs" to whom are you referring?
    all those of that ilk -- but most especially you and 1911 in particular
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  13. #213  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Hoovs, you're manifesting Republican Nice Guy Syndrome. Bayre is not our friend. The policies he advocates have destroyed the inner city and the minority family. His ilk would leave us undefended in the face of Islamofascists, would tax producers into poverty, squelch dissent, and govern by judicial fiat. He projects when he speaks of "Repugs".
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  14. #214  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoovs
    Your assessment of Leftist policies is true enough... and well spoken. But BARYE seems like a nice enough fellow. True, he's not my friend insomuch as we don't really know each other. But, with regard to intentions, he deserves the benefit of the doubt. Until I'm proven wrong, I'll treat him as most of the other Left-leaning folks on this board: well-meaning but wrong. Just as, I assume, they think of me. That being said, describing me as repugnant because I'm a Republican is really pushing the boundaries of good intentions.
    jeez -- how can you guys profane me by calling me a nice guy ????

    what have I done to deserve this ??

    I tried to get you deported hoovs -- have you forgotten ???

    I have worked hard for my dastardly reputation ...
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  15. #215  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Barye and I spar it out over and over again....and one reason that I do, is that he occasionally will recognize when he is wrong. And so will I. That makes for a positive debating atomosphere.

    And since he is wrong 97.5% of the time....we agree with common views 2% of the time....that makes me right 99.5% of the time when we debate!
    hobbes -- yesterday after your prompting, I read some old parts of this thread.

    Turns out that this thread was probably the last place I posted before I had to dissapear into the jungle (to escape the pursuit of 1911forever and woof -- after being forced from the witless protection program...)

    we had some really good threads last summer and fall -- with some people who are either completely gone now or seldom here.

    (1911forever -- glad to see you back...)
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  16. #216  
    ABC news tonight ran a story tonight that alleged that Speaker Hastert --- the top congressional Republican, and 2nd in line to be President -- is under investigation for his involvement with Jack Abrahamoff -- an investigation for taking bribes on behalf of indian casinos.

    This development puts Hastert's and other GOP criticism (proper criticism) of the FBI for their illegal search of Congressman Jefferson's congressional office in an entirely different context.

    Congressional repugs may well care about the constitutional importance of the seperation of powers and the co-equality of the branches of govt. etc -- as well as the importance of the privacy of congressman, at least.

    But perhaps they care a little more than usual now because they think that the hard knocking on that door by the FBI, could very well tomorrow be their door.

    Hastert "In the Mix" of Congressional Bribery InvestigationBrian Ross ABC News May 24, 2006

    Federal officials say the Congressional bribery investigation now includes Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert, based on information from convicted lobbyists who are now cooperating with the government.

    Part of the investigation involves a letter Hastert wrote three years ago, urging the Secretary of the Interior to block a casino on an Indian reservation that would have competed with other tribes.

    The other tribes were represented by convicted lobbyist Jack Abramoff who reportedly has provided details of his dealings with Hastert as part of his plea agreement with the government.

    The letter was written shortly after a fund-raiser for Hastert at a restaurant owned by Abramoff. Abramoff and his clients contributed more than $26,000 at the time.

    The day Abramoff was indicted, Hastert denied any unlawful connection and said he would donate to charity any campaign contribution he had received from Abramoff and his clients.

    A spokesman for Speaker Hastert told ABC News, "We are not aware of this. The Speaker has a long history and a well-documented record of opposing Indian Reservation shopping for casino gaming purposes."

    This week, Hastert has been outspoken in his criticism of the FBI for its raid on the office of another congressman under investigation, Democrat William Jefferson of Louisiana.

    "My opinion is that they took the wrong path, Hastert said of the FBI. "They need to back up, and we need to go from there."

    Despite a flat denial from the Department of Justice, federal law enforcement sources tonight said ABC News accurately reported that Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert is "in the mix" in the FBI investigation of corruption in Congress.

    Speaker Hastert said tonight the story was "absolutely untrue" and has demanded ABC News retract its story.

    Law enforcement sources told ABC News that convicted lobbyist Jack Abramoff has provided information to the FBI about Hastert and a number of other members of Congress that have broadened the scope of the investigation. Sources would not divulge details of the Abramoff’s information.

    ...One focus involves a letter Hastert wrote in 2003 urging the Secretary of the Interior to block an Indian casino that would have competed with tribes represented by Abramoff.

    The letter was written within days of a fund-raiser held for Hastert at Abramoff’s restaurant in Washington. Federal campaign records show more than $26,000 was raised at the time from Abramoff and his clients.

    Hastert has denied doing anything unlawful and says he has a long history of opposing certain types of Indian casinos.

    ABC’s law enforcement sources said the Justice Department denial was meant only to deny that Hastert was a formal “target” or “subject” of the investigation.

    "Whether they like it or not, members of Congress, including Hastert, are under investigation," one federal official said tonight...

    Officials said the next logical investigative step would be for the FBI to seek a wide range of documents from the members of Congress named by Abramoff, including letters and business documents.

    A spokesman for Hastert said the office had received no subpoenas or requests for documents.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  17. #217  
    Return of Jefferson Files Is Sought
    Bipartisan Request Sent to Justice Dept.


    By Shailagh Murray and Allan Lengel
    Washington Post Staff Writers
    Thursday, May 25, 2006

    In a rare bipartisan action, House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert and Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi demanded yesterday that the Justice Department immediately return documents that were seized when federal agents raided the office of Rep. William J. Jefferson (D-La.) as part of a bribery probe.

    Noting that "no person is above the law, neither the one being investigated nor those conducting the investigation," Hastert (R-Ill.) and Pelosi (D-Calif.) asserted that the Justice Department must cease reviewing the documents and ensure that their contents are not divulged. Once the papers are returned, "Congressman Jefferson can and should fully cooperate with the Justice Department's efforts, consistent with his constitutional rights," the statement said.

    The demands by Hastert and Pelosi further escalated a separation-of-powers conflict between Congress and the White House. The raid on Jefferson's office last weekend was the first time that the FBI has executed a search warrant on the Capitol Hill office of a sitting lawmaker.

    The Justice Department initially signaled an unwillingness to return the documents. But White House officials are concerned about the vigorous and repeated complaints of the congressional leaders and have pressed the Justice Department to find a way to placate Congress and defuse the controversy, according to a department official.

    Many Republicans and Democrats contend that the unprecedented raid on a congressional office was unduly aggressive and may have breached the constitutional separation of powers between the executive and legislative branches of government, which is meant to shelter lawmakers from administrative intimidation. Legal scholars are divided on this issue, however, and some said yesterday that the raid does not violate the letter of the Constitution or subsequent rulings by the Supreme Court....

    House Judiciary Committee Chairman F. James Sensenbrenner Jr. (R-Wis.) announced yesterday that he will hold a hearing on the "profoundly disturbing" questions that he said the Justice Department's actions have raised...
    Last edited by BARYE; 05/25/2006 at 02:12 AM.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  18. #218  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    even beyond Faux news, literally now an arm of this White House -- the MSM treated junior with silk gloves.

    Compare Clinton's early hellfest where he was clobbered daily over fictional misdeeds named: White Water, Travel Gate, The Rose Law Firm's missing records, the money made in futures trading, Foster's suicide --

    all of that was crap, but the press was RELENTLESS in attacking attacking attacking him day after day after day -- whether he was home, or traveling abroad and meeting with a foriegn leader.

    junior's administration which has been gratuitously corrupt, was in comparison practically given a free ride until this year.

    NBC in particular, but even CNN and the other networks, noticably altered the skeptism of their coverage apparently in reaction to rise of Faux news and the right. This predated in my view, 9/11.
    Bush got a "free ride" in the media? You really are deluded.

    If you count being "treated with kids gloves" as running as news obviously forged documents in an attempt to sway an election, then yes, Bush has been treated with kid gloves.

    "Fictional misdeeds"? That is a howler.

    Do you think Travel Gate was unfairily covered? I wonder what Billy Dale would think about that?

    Futures trading? Why, yes. Every American housewife can easily parlay $1000 into $100,000 in a short time in the cattle futures business! (As long as she sits on the board at Wal-Mart and her husband is the governor.)

    Vince Foster's suicide? Everyone knows that the ELITE Federal Park Service is the agency of choice to investigate how blood flows up hill.

    The smartest woman in America can't find her billing records...until they turn up just after the statute of limitations runs out.

    And what you don't mention is that the left wing dominated mainstream media, while they covered Clinton's mideeds, capers and crimes, always provided editorial rebuttal and couched the stories as a Republican Jihad.

    Compare that treatment with what Bush as received, since day one, on nearly every editorial page in the nation. Unprecedented villification. (I'm surprised that Paul Krugman hasn't popped a blood vessel by now.)
  19. #219  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    ABC news tonight ran a story tonight that alleged that Speaker Hastert --- the top congressional Republican, and 2nd in line to be President -- is under investigation for his involvement with Jack Abrahamoff -- an investigation for taking bribes on behalf of indian casinos.

    This development puts Hastert's and other GOP criticism (proper criticism) of the FBI for their illegal search of Congressman Jefferson's congressional office in an entirely different context.

    Congressional repugs may well care about the constitutional importance of the seperation of powers and the co-equality of the branches of govt. etc -- as well as the importance of the privacy of congressman, at least.

    But perhaps they care a little more than usual now because they think that the hard knocking on that door by the FBI, could very well tomorrow be their door.

    Hastert "In the Mix" of Congressional Bribery InvestigationBrian Ross ABC News May 24, 2006

    Federal officials say the Congressional bribery investigation now includes Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert, based on information from convicted lobbyists who are now cooperating with the government.

    Part of the investigation involves a letter Hastert wrote three years ago, urging the Secretary of the Interior to block a casino on an Indian reservation that would have competed with other tribes.

    The other tribes were represented by convicted lobbyist Jack Abramoff who reportedly has provided details of his dealings with Hastert as part of his plea agreement with the government.

    The letter was written shortly after a fund-raiser for Hastert at a restaurant owned by Abramoff. Abramoff and his clients contributed more than $26,000 at the time.

    The day Abramoff was indicted, Hastert denied any unlawful connection and said he would donate to charity any campaign contribution he had received from Abramoff and his clients.

    A spokesman for Speaker Hastert told ABC News, "We are not aware of this. The Speaker has a long history and a well-documented record of opposing Indian Reservation shopping for casino gaming purposes."

    This week, Hastert has been outspoken in his criticism of the FBI for its raid on the office of another congressman under investigation, Democrat William Jefferson of Louisiana.

    "My opinion is that they took the wrong path, Hastert said of the FBI. "They need to back up, and we need to go from there."

    Despite a flat denial from the Department of Justice, federal law enforcement sources tonight said ABC News accurately reported that Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert is "in the mix" in the FBI investigation of corruption in Congress.

    Speaker Hastert said tonight the story was "absolutely untrue" and has demanded ABC News retract its story.

    Law enforcement sources told ABC News that convicted lobbyist Jack Abramoff has provided information to the FBI about Hastert and a number of other members of Congress that have broadened the scope of the investigation. Sources would not divulge details of the Abramoff’s information.

    ...One focus involves a letter Hastert wrote in 2003 urging the Secretary of the Interior to block an Indian casino that would have competed with tribes represented by Abramoff.

    The letter was written within days of a fund-raiser held for Hastert at Abramoff’s restaurant in Washington. Federal campaign records show more than $26,000 was raised at the time from Abramoff and his clients.

    Hastert has denied doing anything unlawful and says he has a long history of opposing certain types of Indian casinos.

    ABC’s law enforcement sources said the Justice Department denial was meant only to deny that Hastert was a formal “target” or “subject” of the investigation.

    "Whether they like it or not, members of Congress, including Hastert, are under investigation," one federal official said tonight...

    Officials said the next logical investigative step would be for the FBI to seek a wide range of documents from the members of Congress named by Abramoff, including letters and business documents.

    A spokesman for Hastert said the office had received no subpoenas or requests for documents.
    Hastert is a spineless weasel. I hope this does bring him down, even though it is unlikely he did anything that isn't, unfortunately, accepted practice in Congress..
  20. #220  
    in the tradition of "dark and mentally unbalanced" reporting .....

    DEAN REASSURES DEMOCRATS: ‘WE WILL FIND A WAY TO SCREW THIS UP’
    DNC Chief Determined to Uphold Losing Tradition

    Amid a growing belief that there is no way the Democrats can blow the 2006 midterm elections, Democratic National Committee chief Howard Dean sought today to reassure the party faithful that the party was “doing everything in its power” to uphold its losing tradition.

    At a top-level summit called “Defeat: 2006” being held in Boston, the former Vermont Governor gave a rousing speech to concerned Democrats, bringing his audience to his feet by vowing, “I can assure each and every one of you, we will find a way to screw this up.”

    With President Bush’s approval rating below thirty percent and key Republican members of Congress the targets of ethics probes, many Democrats have been worried that their historic role as losers and sad sacks might come to an abrupt end this November, a fear Mr. Dean attempted to quell today.

    “Folks, let’s not forget, we’re Democrats,” Mr. Dean said. “If there’s a way to lose, we will find it.”

    Carol Foyler, a longtime Democrat from Bethesda, Maryland who attended the summit, said that she had been worried that the Democrats might somehow pull out a victory in 2006, but added, “Just knowing that Howard Dean is in charge makes me feel much more confident about losing.”

    Elsewhere, after a study by the Georgetown School of Medicine said that millions of dollars are wasted on unnecessary medical tests, the American Medical Association said that there might be something wrong with the author of the study and he should come in for a checkup immediately.
    Palm m505 -> Treo600 (GSM ATT) -> Treo650 (Cingular) -> BB8700g -> BB Pearl
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