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  1. #61  
    I love watching you christians go toe to toe!

    Very interesting indeed.
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  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by pdxtreo
    I love watching you christians go toe to toe!

    Very interesting indeed.
    I guess if you stand for nothing, you'll fall for anything!
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  3. #63  

    LOL
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  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    I guess if you stand for nothing, you'll fall for anything!
    Perhaps. It fascinates me that Christians are all talk. However, Jesus told us: "By their fruits you will know them." It must be terrible to be a righteous Christian and be associated with all the hypocrites.
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    Perhaps. It fascinates me that Christians are all talk. However, Jesus told us: "By their fruits you will know them." It must be terrible to be a righteous Christian and be associated with all the hypocrites.
    My fruit is my fruit. I am associated with my wife and my girls. I stand behind everything they do and say. End of list.

    I can't control what Pat Robertson, Jesse Jackson, Bill Clinton and other born-again Christians do or say. I'm sure you don't find yourself associated with those outside your immediate embrace.

    I'm a Christian and I'm not all talk: exception to your rule. I'm sure you'll adjust your thinking now.
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by frankthetoad
    Amen!!
    And amen. I have deleted my latest post and suggest that we terminate this thread here. Anyone here not convinced is likely to remain so.
  7. #67  


  8.    #68  
    Thanks, DaT. I've been waiting for the right time to pose a question on this subject

    {collective groan reverberates across the forum}

    Question: Is my understanding correct that 1) we have observed the evolution of TB and fruitflies, etc. and, 2) through various experiments spurred by such observations, we have extrapolated that such evolution is possible and even probable to have occured in such a way as to create all species of living beings as we know them?
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    {collective groan reverberates across the forum}
    Yup, I wasn't sure this thread wanted to be revived but I had to post that cartoon. It's too cute and this thread it's right on topic.
  10. #70  
    'Intelligent design' teaching ban
    A court in the US has ruled against the teaching of the theory of "intelligent design" alongside Darwinian evolution.

    A group of parents in the Pennsylvania town of Dover had taken the school board to court for demanding biology classes not teach evolution as fact.

    The authorities wanted to introduce the theory that Earth's life was too complicated to have evolved on its own.

    Judge John Jones ruled the school board had violated the constitutional ban on teaching religion in public schools.

    The 11 parents who brought the case argued that teaching intelligent design (ID) was effectively teaching creationism, which is banned.

    "We find that the secular purposes claimed by the board amount to a pretext for the board's real purpose, which was to promote religion.",
    Judge John Jones

    They complained the theory - which argues life must have been helped to develop by an unseen power - is tantamount to religious education.

    The separation of church and state is enshrined in the US constitution.

    The school board argued they had sought to improve science education by exposing pupils to alternatives to Charles Darwin's theory of evolution.

    But Judge Jones said he had determined that ID was not science and "cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents".

    In a 139-page written ruling, the judge said: "Our conclusion today is that it is unconstitutional to teach ID as an alternative to evolution in a public school science classroom."

    He accused school board members of disguising their true motives for introducing the ID policy.

    "We find that the secular purposes claimed by the board amount to a pretext for the board's real purpose, which was to promote religion in the public school classroom," he said.

    He banned any future implementation of the policy in Dover schools.

    The case, the first of its kind, sets an important precedent in a country where several states have adopted the teaching of ID, reports the BBC's James Coomerasamy in Washington.

    Ironically, he adds, it is a somewhat academic ruling in the Dover area since parents there voted last month to replace the school board members who brought in the policy.

    That move provoked US TV evangelist Pat Robertson to warn the town was invoking the wrath of God.

    A lawyer for the parents said the ruling was a "real vindication" for those families who challenged the school board.
    Sanity prevails. But the onslaught upon reason continues. Hold your ground people!
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Sanity prevails. But the onslaught upon reason continues. Hold your ground people!
    Don't mess with Pat Robertson. Look what his fatwahs did to New Orleans, Indonesia, and Pakistan. He is going to live forever and he is not through yet.
  12. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Sanity prevails. But the onslaught upon reason continues. Hold your ground people!
    Yes! Knowledge can be dangerous!!!

    (I'm no ID advocate but the principle is still funny)
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  13. #73  
    Now I know I am in trouble- I'm agreeing with da thomas!! Although I strongly believe in the pacifying beneficial effect of religion as perhaps the only way to instill morality- or some semblance of it- in some people it has no place in public schools or in the execution of government function. ID is another fairy tale that belongs in Sunday school not Monday through Friday school
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas


    Great stuff, thanks for posting!
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Sanity prevails. But the onslaught upon reason continues. Hold your ground people!
    Came here to post the same story... good to know that not all is lost in US science curricula.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gasmeister
    Now I know I am in trouble- I'm agreeing with da thomas!!


    Quote Originally Posted by Gasmeister
    Although I strongly believe in the pacifying beneficial effect of religion as perhaps the only way to instill morality- or some semblance of it- in some people ...
    Why hasn't it taken with Bush?
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Thanks, DaT. I've been waiting for the right time to pose a question on this subject

    {collective groan reverberates across the forum}

    Question: Is my understanding correct that 1) we have observed the evolution of TB and fruitflies, etc. and, 2) through various experiments spurred by such observations, we have extrapolated that such evolution is possible and even probable to have occured in such a way as to create all species of living beings as we know them?
    The simple answer is yes. In reality, there is much more behind it than just just the evolution of Mycobacterium tuberculosis (which causes TB) or fruitflies, millions of other observations and experiments all pointing into the same direction... are you hoping to find a serious gap in evolution?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
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    #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    The simple answer is yes. In reality, there is much more behind it than just just the evolution of Mycobacterium tuberculosis (which causes TB) or fruitflies, millions of other observations and experiments all pointing into the same direction... are you hoping to find a serious gap in evolution?
    Ahh microevolution must mean macroevolution story. Oh well this horse has been beat to death, but wait maybe the dead horse will evolve into a unicorn.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  19.    #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    The simple answer is yes. In reality, there is much more behind it than just just the evolution of Mycobacterium tuberculosis (which causes TB) or fruitflies, millions of other observations and experiments all pointing into the same direction... are you hoping to find a serious gap in evolution?
    No. It's just that I've found that in many of the discussions on the subject we do not always draw distinctions. For example, evolution practically assumes abiotic origin, however abiotic origin is not a part of the theory. Yet in discussions, the two bodies of thought are sometimes lumped together.

    Likewise, the statement is frequently made that evolution is a fact. I'm finding, though, that there are facts, then there are facts. So-called micro-evolution is observed, whereas so-called macro-evolution is extrapolated....reasonably so based, on the millions of other observations as you have pointed out -- but extrapolation none the less.

    Extrapolation does not make it any less accurate as a conclusion. From what I have observed it is both a feasible and reasonable conclusion based on the observations.

    I posed the inquiry, wanting to resolve the question of semantics in my on understanding. I've been thinking on it for some time, but delayed asking, not wanting to stir emotions as this topic oft does.

    But, given that Mr. Trudeau (sp?) broached the topic, I thought I'd venture back into the arena with this matter.
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    ......Likewise, the statement is frequently made that evolution is a fact.......
    Such an assertion would be, at best, shorthand, at worst "junk science." "The Theory of The Evolution of Species by Natural Selection" is an attempt to explain a huge body of observed natural phenomenon. There is a scientific consensus that it is the best explanation of the data (that does not rely upon an appeal to magic). There is a scientific consensus that there is no need to rely upon magic to explain the data.

    Intelligent Design, at best, is an assertion that the theory does not satisfy, that there is a need to rely upon an as yet undiscovered explanation of the data. At worst it is an assertion that the phenomenon is so complex that science will always be inadequate to explain it.

    Creationism is, at best, a preference for a poetic or mythical explanation that does not require a detailed study or understanding of the observable phenomenon. At worst, it is a rejection of the scientifc method as a means of appreciating and understanding the universe.
    Last edited by whmurray; 12/20/2005 at 05:09 PM.
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