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  1. #21  
    Shopharim,

    Your point is well taken. I'm not proponent of "Intelligent Design" and it is obvious how difficult it is for many to consider God (or god, architect, etc.) in "scientific" thinking.

    Paraphrase: "We'll consider God if there's a compelling, scientific reason to do so. So far, we haven't found any..."

    Those without ears cannot hear.
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  2. cardio's Avatar
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    #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I wouldn't count on that.You are largely right, only that this has already happened. The evidence from molecular biology and genetics on the DNA level have totally confirmed the evolution of species, past and present. This is actually what led the Catholic church (representing more than half of the roughly 2 billion Christians worlwide, meaning far, far more than the relatively small group of fundamentalist Christians in the US) to give up their resistance against evolution.Is that what you have been told? Sorry, but you have been fooled.

    I guess it is not surprising that in a country where in many places evolution is such a controversial issue that it is not taught in schools any more, people end up knowing little or nothing about the subject. That makes them easy victims for disinformation and unscientific religious propaganda. Without knowing, you have become a victim of this.

    I guess it's not easy to leave behind years of disinformation, or no information at all, but if you still have an open mind, this may be a good starting point: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/
    Well, since you bring up the possibility of an open mind, here is some information for you to consider. It will require you to accept the possibility you may have been misinformed by faulty science. I am not asking you to reject what you beleive, but to seriously consider the scientific evidence.

    http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/08dna02.htm

    If you disagree that is fine, but try to refrain from validating your views in your mind with derogatory statements toward me or our nation as a whole. It makes you look kinda pathetic.
  3.    #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    ...Is that what you have been told? Sorry, but you have been fooled.

    I guess it is not surprising that in a country where in many places evolution is such a controversial issue that it is not taught in schools any more, people end up knowing little or nothing about the subject. That makes them easy victims for disinformation and unscientific religious propaganda. Without knowing, you have become a victim of this.

    I guess it's not easy to leave behind years of disinformation, or no information at all, but if you still have an open mind, this may be a good starting point: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/
    Cool source. I appreciate having a lot of the information in one place with facilitated user interface.

    I must confess though, that the source you provided does not speak with the same certainty that you assert on this forum.

    A single example from the segment on Defining Speciation :

    In most real-life cases, we can only put together part of the story from the available evidence. However, the evidence that this sort of process does happen is strong.
    NOTE: I do not offer this as proof of anything; but rather evidence that the theory does in fact have "gaps" (at least from the view point of the authors of the web site).

    I suspect the scientists are following rigorous process. I suspect the findings are subjected to rigourous review. I suspect much of what comprises the theory is accurate.

    I also suspect those who are not convinced would be more "open minded" if the evidence was presented as this website seems to do, saying effectively: we have very good reason to believe this is what occured, however the definitive evidence of such is lacking -- and thus, our research continues.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I guess it is not surprising that in a country where in many places evolution is such a controversial issue that it is not taught in schools any more, people end up knowing little or nothing about the subject. That makes them easy victims for disinformation and unscientific religious propaganda. Without knowing, you have become a victim of this.
    You need better sources of news over there...

    In some very few places in the U.S., "intelligent design" is to be given equal time in class alongside evolutionary theory.

    Earlier you also wrote this troubling tidbit:
    Science proves beyond doubt...
    Beyond doubt? Nothing in science is ever beyond doubt. That's the very foundation of science.
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  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    You need better sources of news over there...

    In some very few places in the U.S., "intelligent design" is to be given equal time in class alongside evolutionary theory.
    You kinda forgot to mention that the president you elected also recommends this...
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Earlier you also wrote this troubling tidbit:
    Science proves beyond doubt...
    Beyond doubt? Nothing in science is ever beyond doubt. That's the very foundation of science.
    Indeed that was wrong, I am sorry. I should have written something like "When using everyday language, one would say science proves beyond reasonable doubt that the evolution of species indeed is what occurred..."

    The general process of the evolution of species is about as certain as earth circling the sun.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Well, since you bring up the possibility of an open mind, here is some information for you to consider. It will require you to accept the possibility you may have been misinformed by faulty science. I am not asking you to reject what you beleive, but to seriously consider the scientific evidence.

    http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/08dna02.htm

    If you disagree that is fine, but try to refrain from validating your views in your mind with derogatory statements toward me or our nation as a whole. It makes you look kinda pathetic.
    You are not doing your cause a service by quoting things like the above. In contrast to what you say, it does not contain any scientific evidence whatsoever - just baseless claims without any data that support them. It is precisely the sort of religious propaganda which is used to confuse people about the basics of science and evolution.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    You kinda forgot to mention that the president you elected also recommends this...
    Uh, 'cause it's not relevant?
    Indeed that was wrong, I am sorry. I should have written something like "When using everyday language, one would say science proves beyond reasonable doubt that the evolution of species indeed is what occurred..."
    How easy it is to slip into fundamentalism...
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  8. #28  
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  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    I must confess though, that the source you provided does not speak with the same certainty that you assert on this forum.
    I never claimed to be overly diplomatic in these discussions...
    I also suspect those who are not convinced would be more "open minded" if the evidence was presented as this website seems to do, saying effectively: we have very good reason to believe this is what occured, however the definitive evidence of such is lacking -- and thus, our research continues.
    Maybe about 999,999 out of 1,000,000 biologists and other scientists dealing with evolution and related topics do not have the slightest doubt that evolution as a general process is what happened over the past billions of years on this planet. The evidence accumulated over the past centuries is simply too overwhelming, and contradicting results are simply too lacking.

    That does not mean every single mechanism and detail is known and scientifically proven. Research goes on. But the big picture is more than clear and not doubted in the least within the great majority of the scientific community.
    Last edited by clulup; 10/03/2005 at 11:43 AM.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    How easy it is to slip into fundamentalism...
    But I was fundamentalistic with tons of evidence on my side, while normally, fundamentalists don't have any evidence at all. Plus, I was fundamentalilstic for a very short time only, and I apologized!
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  11. jlczl's Avatar
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    #31  
    Kind of a depressing and sad existence it would be to believe that man is the only hope for mankind. Don't you think?
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  12. cardio's Avatar
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    #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    You are not doing your cause a service by quoting things like the above. In contrast to what you say, it does not contain any scientific evidence whatsoever - just baseless claims without any data that support them. It is precisely the sort of religious propaganda which is used to confuse people about the basics of science and evolution.
    Do you disagree with the data concerning DNA, RNA, cells etc that is presented or just the fact that it points the gaps in todays evolutionary theory? Or is it that the presenter just does not share your view?

    I did not state this to show scientific evidence of how we were created, just that it questions todays evolutionary theroy. There are questions that I have not seen answered, and yes I have looked. I do not accept the answer of random chance or random mutations. There are just too many holes, and too many scientist who simply try to make the result fit into the evolutionary frame and if it does not work, or worse yet disagrees with evolution, they use the similarities argument or such.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    The problem I see is that it is being stated that one possible outcome is being excluded without being scientifically ruled out. Your example of thunder is a good example, the thought of it being Thor was not excluded because it was not proven at that point, ......
    Thor Would have been ruled out a priori as a scientific hypothesis as not verifiable. Similarly, the difficulty with considering Intelligent Design as a scientific hypothesis is finding a statement of it that can be tested. The proposition "that it, for example, the eye, is too complex to have arisen spontaneously" is not verifiable. It is intuitively persuasive but that is not enough. Those who are opposed to, for example, Origin of the Species, reject it in large part because it is intuitively unsatisfying, however consistent with the evidence it may be.

    I find Origin of the Species, Special Relativity, and Quantum Mechanics all intuitively uncomfortable. I can rarely get my head around them for more than 15 minutes at a time. Their value is in the fact that they can be demonstrated, one can make verifiable predictions with them. Like Genesis, Intelligent Design is intuitively comfortable but can neither be demonstrated nor disproved. One can not make verifiable predictions with it.
  14. #34  
    "Gaps" don't mean "flaws." Until we know everything there is to know, there will be gaps. It is the scientist's job to narrow and eventually close those gaps by applying logic and reason to evidence, not to throw up his or her hands and say "It had to be a higher power."
    "Yeah, he can talk. It's gettin' him to shut up that's the trick!"
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  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by jlczl
    Kind of a depressing and sad existence it would be to believe that man is the only hope for mankind. Don't you think?
    Funny thing is that is the case even if you believe in god/Allah..

    It is the free will theory most religions use..
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  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom LaPrise
    "Gaps" don't mean "flaws." Until we know everything there is to know, there will be gaps. It is the scientist's job to narrow and eventually close those gaps by applying logic and reason to evidence, not to throw up his or her hands and say "It had to be a higher power."
    A gap is very different from inconsistent evidence.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    Shopharim,

    Your point is well taken. I'm not proponent of "Intelligent Design" and it is obvious how difficult it is for many to consider God (or god, architect, etc.) in "scientific" thinking.

    Paraphrase: "We'll consider God if there's a compelling, scientific reason to do so. So far, we haven't found any..."

    Those without ears cannot hear.
    I find remarks like that insulting to scientist. why would scientist not be able to see god if he appears just because they say they have never seen him.

    I have never seen the treo 700w but I'm sure I'll be able to see it when it is in front of me, even when I doubted the 700 existed when the first pics leaked..
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  18.    #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom LaPrise
    "Gaps" don't mean "flaws." ...
    I wanted to go on record as agreeing with this statement.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    A gap is very different from inconsistent evidence.
    Funny, do you have any evidence a supreme being was the creator?

    A case of the pot calling the kettle black IMHO
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  20. cardio's Avatar
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    #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom LaPrise
    "Gaps" don't mean "flaws." Until we know everything there is to know, there will be gaps. It is the scientist's job to narrow and eventually close those gaps by applying logic and reason to evidence, not to throw up his or her hands and say "It had to be a higher power."
    I am well aware gaps are not flaws, but it could mean that two items that are being considered as relevent to each other really are not related at all. To compare a birds bill growing longer to get deeper into a seed pod and man evolving into a completely new creature is a stretch. Yes, we know an animal adapts (evolves) to allow it to survive and prosper, there may still be gaps in the data but not leaps between steps. The current theory of evolution of man has large gaps that allow for constant disagreement even among evolutionry scientist.
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