Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 84
  1. #41  
    Cardio -- please correct my memory but I think I recall you, 1911sforever, vw2002 explaining why junior's people were so slow to provide aid was because of the NO violence and the "shooting" at Nat. Guard helicopters.

    It was why thousands and thousands of armed police and troops needed to be deployed before aid could be delivered.

    I fear that the talking point agenda has now changed -- and that now the emphasis is on saying that things weren't so bad, that the press exaggerated stuff.

    Ironically I have seen enough first person description of horrible stuff happening to people directly that I now believe that some monstrous stuff did occur -- at the convention center and in flooded New Orleans.

    All of it could have been easily prevented by reasonable deployment of FEMA resources and troops as soon as the winds died down.

    Does everyone know that Brownie is still employed as a FEMA consultant ??
    Last edited by BARYE; 09/28/2005 at 12:16 PM.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  2. NRG
    NRG is offline
    NRG's Avatar
    Posts
    3,657 Posts
    Global Posts
    3,670 Global Posts
    #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by ttrundle
    Seems to me that the state and local government's were really at fault, not mandating evacuations before it hit. The top dog is always an easy target.
    Evacs were ordered before it hit (Mandatory).
  3. NRG
    NRG is offline
    NRG's Avatar
    Posts
    3,657 Posts
    Global Posts
    3,670 Global Posts
    #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    No different than your good friend Michael Brown who also resigned during the difficult times he is facing post Katrina. Look at the similarities

    Brown - Less than optimal response to emergency situation
    Compass - Less than optimal response to emergency situation

    Brown - responsible for federal portion of emergency
    Compass - respnsible for local police portion of emergency

    Brown - Faced criticism for his handeling on Katrina
    Compass - Faced criticism for his handeling on Katrina

    Brown - His boss said he is doing a heck of a job
    Compass - His boss said a sad day when a hero makes this decsion

    Brown - Resigned due to outside pressure
    Compass Resigned due to outside pressure

    Major difference seems to be who their boss happens to be.
    Too bad Brown is still on the payroll at FEMA.
  4. NRG
    NRG is offline
    NRG's Avatar
    Posts
    3,657 Posts
    Global Posts
    3,670 Global Posts
    #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Does evveryone know that Brownie is still employed as a FEMA consultant ??
    Yeah, you would figure a subpoena would be cheaper, than keeping him on the payroll to the tune of $148,000/yr.
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Too bad Brown is still on the payroll at FEMA.

    The reason I've heard that he's still on the payroll (as a "consultant") is because it ensures that the White House and Karl Rove get to control what he says. As their employee he must get clearance for anything he says.

    Parenthically, I thought the scheme of Brownie using his testimony before a largely Republican panel to again blame most everything on the local politicians was a good strategy. And I suspect it has worked better than most think.

    That it was a lie is of little consequence.

    Brown's Claims Not Fully Supported by FEMA Hurricane Response Plan
    Pierre Thomas ABC News September 28, 2005

    Michael Brown, the outgoing head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, said while testifying to a House panel today that local officials were more to blame than he was for a failed relief effort in the days following Hurricane Katrina. He suggested much of the chaos in New Orleans could not have been anticipated.

    But a draft of a comprehensive hurricane plan prepared for the United States government foresaw almost everything that happened in Louisiana as a result of Hurricane Katrina....

    Brown lays the blame at the feet of Louisiana local and state officials for being confused and inefficient as Hurricane Katrina hit.

    "My biggest regret is not getting the governor [of Louisiana] and the mayor of New Orleans to sit down and iron out their differences," Brown told the panel.

    But FEMA has had a catastrophic hurricane plan since January, which warns that local government would not be able to cope with a huge storm.

    "The response capabilities and resources of the local jurisdiction may be insufficient and quickly overwhelmed," the document reads.
    Brown said it was unclear what Louisiana officials needed.

    "I could not find out who was making decisions about what needed to be done," Brown testified.

    But FEMA's own plan advises the federal government that if lives are at stake, it should not wait to be asked for help.
    "This may require mobilizing and deploying assets before they are requested," the plan says.
    ...

    It warned that, "the State of Louisiana has identified a shortage in resources required to evacuate and support shelters, including the special needs populations." ...
    Last edited by BARYE; 09/28/2005 at 12:19 PM.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  6. cardio's Avatar
    Posts
    779 Posts
    Global Posts
    787 Global Posts
    #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    WOW! If you fail to see that the Coast Guard and the National Media were the ONLY two organizations addressing that mess in the first 48-72 hours, you're about as naiver as they come.
    There you go again. We were discussing the media failing to report the truth and you start talking about the Coast Guard and National Media as if they were there for the same reason. And, instead of defending your positon that the media did an EXCELLENT job you try to take to a jab at me .
  7. cardio's Avatar
    Posts
    779 Posts
    Global Posts
    787 Global Posts
    #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Cardio -- please correct my memory but I think I recall you, 1911sforever, vw2002 explaining why junior's people were so slow to provide aid was because of the NO violence and the the "shooting" at Nat. Guard helicopters.

    It was why thousands and thousands of armed police and troops needed to be deployed before aid could be delivered.

    I fear that the talking point agenda had now changed -- and that now the emphasis is on saying that things weren't so bad, that the press exaggerated stuff.

    Ironically I have seen enough first person description of horrible stuff happening to people directly that I now believe that some monstrous stuff did occur -- at the convention center and in flooded New Orleans.

    All of it could have been easily prevented by reasonable deployment of FEMA resources and troops as soon as the winds died down.

    Does evveryone know that Brownie is still employed as a FEMA consultant ??
    Barye, I think you get it. Yes, it was stated here that one of the reasons that hindered the federal gov't for bailing out the local and state gov't was the media kept reporting the armed gangs roaming the streets, shooting at rescuers in boats and helicopters. Yes, it now appears that essential aid did not go where it needed because the media reported that the conditions at the superdome were so deplorable that babies were being raped, children being killed, and bodies being stacked in the basement. The individuals trying to get the aid to the right place were fed misinformation the media. Unlike some I am not excusing the failed actions of one area to put more blame on another area. I have said from day one that the responsibility must first fall on local officials, state officials, and federal officials in that order. I now must add the media in the mix for they were there to report and instead of reporting the truth they fed misinformation into the situation and increased the sense of chaos.

    To say it all could have been prevented by reasonable deployment of FEMA resources is simply finger pointing at a political party without looking at the situation objectively. For us to learn from the mistakes we need to be honest and put the political agenda aside, hold those responsible accountable and be better prepared for future disasters.
  8. cardio's Avatar
    Posts
    779 Posts
    Global Posts
    787 Global Posts
    #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Too bad Brown is still on the payroll at FEMA.
    I agree, do like I did send your representatives an e-mail or a phone call and voice your displeasure.
  9. cardio's Avatar
    Posts
    779 Posts
    Global Posts
    787 Global Posts
    #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    The reason I've heard that he's still on the payroll (as a "consultant") is because it ensures that the White House and Karl Rove get to control what he says. As their employee he must get clearance for anything he says.

    Parethically, I thought the scheme of Brownie using his testimony before a largely Republican panel to again blame most everything on the local politicians was a good strategy. And I suspect it has worked better than most think.

    That it was a lie is of little consequence.

    Brown's Claims Not Fully Supported by FEMA Hurricane Response Plan
    Pierre Thomas ABC News September 28, 2005

    Michael Brown, the outgoing head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, said while testifying to a House panel today that local officials were more to blame than he was for a failed relief effort in the days following Hurricane Katrina. He suggested much of the chaos in New Orleans could not have been anticipated.

    But a draft of a comprehensive hurricane plan prepared for the United States government foresaw almost everything that happened in Louisiana as a result of Hurricane Katrina....

    Brown lays the blame at the feet of Louisiana local and state officials for being confused and inefficient as Hurricane Katrina hit.

    "My biggest regret is not getting the governor [of Louisiana] and the mayor of New Orleans to sit down and iron out their differences," Brown told the panel.

    But FEMA has had a catastrophic hurricane plan since January, which warns that local government would not be able to cope with a huge storm.

    "The response capabilities and resources of the local jurisdiction may be insufficient and quickly overwhelmed," the document reads.
    Brown said it was unclear what Louisiana officials needed.

    "I could not find out who was making decisions about what needed to be done," Brown testified.

    But FEMA's own plan advises the federal government that if lives are at stake, it should not wait to be asked for help.
    "This may require mobilizing and deploying assets before they are requested," the plan says.
    ...

    It warned that, "the State of Louisiana has identified a shortage in resources required to evacuate and support shelters, including the special needs populations." ...
    We all know Brown is trying to save face.

    You bring up some valid points that the local and state officials were given notice in Jan that they were not properly prepared. Did they act on that information, did local and state agencies divert funds or manpower to shore up areas that were deficient, did the federal gov't offer assistance at that time? I don't know. You point out FEMA had a plan since Jan, how long has the local evacuation plan been in place? Having a plan in place or knowing there are problems are not enough, you have to act on the information and it is apparent that they (NO, LA, USA) did not.

    I am still hesitant to agree with the thought process that the federal gov't can step in and take control for the states when they feel it is necessary. I think that the federal gov't should respond when requested, provide financial help, military assistance or whatever but the state should remain in control and being in control means requesting assistance. The Gov of LA has admitted (albeit after it was recorded without her realizing it) that she should have asked for military help sooner.
  10. #50  
    I agree with Cardio.....

    Brown: If you are not happy Brown is still on the Payroll, let your rep know. I personally think he fell short in several aspects of his job.

    Responsibility of action....Local, State, Fed...in that order. All hold blame with lack of proper preparation. Local did missed some key points in the plan they had laid out. State was slow in making decisions, i.e. getting the NG ordered or authorizing Doctors with out of state licenses in. I think the Fed should have done more to get things all ready to act faster once requested by the state. FEMA has got to get their intel and info procedures totally revamped.

    Media: in this day and age the Media has become a source of intel. If they effected decisions on any level of gov due to false or unstated unconfirmed info then they do hold responsibility as well. If I yelled "FIRE" with no clue that there even was one in a packed theater and 5 people died from being trampled and another house burnt to the ground, killing another 8 people, because the Fire department responded to my false cry....then I hold responsibility for the misdirection and bad decisions of the response team.

    Does anyone know of a confirmed timeline of when what happened with this? I think that would go a long ways in seeing what level of gov failed in what areas and when.
  11. #51  
    I guess I am a little conflicted on this media issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    If I yelled "FIRE" with no clue that there even was one in a packed theater and 5 people died from being trampled and another house burnt to the ground, killing another 8 people, because the Fire department responded to my false cry....then I hold responsibility for the misdirection and bad decisions of the response team.
    Legally, as far as liability is concerned, I think the courts offer news agencies more protection than you or I as an individual under the rationale that we need to protect them because of the fact-finding/investigative services that they perform.

    That being said, the 'news' have a primary goal...that is to make money. This 'idea' of the story, breaking news, live reports, etc all stem from getting viewers tuned into them first. I haven't actually seen the argument written out but this idea that 'because the news agencies were wrong' may have led to a reduced response doesnt hold a lot of water for me. The main reason why is that the 'news' is not a very reliable source of intel for catastrophic emergencies (because they have conflicting goals). I don't think it's reasonable for govt. agencies (or even state and city for that matter) to make life altering decisions based solely on what the news reports. What I would like to have seen was contingency planning on what the media was reporting (and maybe they did...I just haven't seen anything to support it yet.)

    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Media: in this day and age the Media has become a source of intel. If they effected decisions on any level of gov due to false or unstated unconfirmed info then they do hold responsibility as well.
    I think you said something that is key. You said A source. It can't be the only one. If it is and they are wrong, then the govt. should take some blame for relying only on that one source, arguably it would be negligence.

    BTW-I do agree with the argument that there should be govt action last (i.e. I'm a states rights supporter ). That being said, I thought the Mayor of NO was asking for federal assistance on day 1?
    Palm III-->Palm IIIxe-->Palm 505-->Samsung i300-->Treo 600-->PPC 6600-->Treo 650-->Treo 700wx-->BB Pearl--> BB Curve

  12. cardio's Avatar
    Posts
    779 Posts
    Global Posts
    787 Global Posts
    #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I guess I am a little conflicted on this media issue.

    Legally, as far as liability is concerned, I think the courts offer news agencies more protection than you or I as an individual under the rationale that we need to protect them because of the fact-finding/investigative services that they perform.

    That being said, the 'news' have a primary goal...that is to make money. This 'idea' of the story, breaking news, live reports, etc all stem from getting viewers tuned into them first. I haven't actually seen the argument written out but this idea that 'because the news agencies were wrong' may have led to a reduced response doesnt hold a lot of water for me. The main reason why is that the 'news' is not a very reliable source of intel for catastrophic emergencies (because they have conflicting goals). I don't think it's reasonable for govt. agencies (or even state and city for that matter) to make life altering decisions based solely on what the news reports. What I would like to have seen was contingency planning on what the media was reporting (and maybe they did...I just haven't seen anything to support it yet.)

    I think you said something that is key. You said A source. It can't be the only one. If it is and they are wrong, then the govt. should take some blame for relying only on that one source, arguably it would be negligence.

    BTW-I do agree with the argument that there should be govt action last (i.e. I'm a states rights supporter ). That being said, I thought the Mayor of NO was asking for federal assistance on day 1?
    You are absolutely right in the fact that the news agencies (CNN, FOX, ABC, AP, all) are in it for the money. They will sensationilize the story to get it in print or on TV regardless of the truth. Once the officials start repeating what they heard on TV or radio (on Oprah) it becomes more factual in the publics eye.

    I know it was reported that the state authorities under direction from DHS stopped rescuers in boats because of the reports of armed gangs firing at rescuers. It is now being said, by the very rescuers that were supposedly shot at, that there were not armed gangs in the streets as reported by the media. IF there were no gangs and IF the media reported it and IF officials (Nagin, Blanco, Brown, etc) repeated it and IF they acted upon that information then it would be safe to say the false report delayed attempted rescues. I was not there hence all the IFs.
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Cardio -- please correct my memory but I think I recall you, 1911sforever, vw2002 explaining why junior's people were so slow to provide aid was because of the NO violence and the the "shooting" at Nat. Guard helicopters.
    Ouch... lol


  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Barye, I think you get it. Yes, it was stated here that one of the reasons that hindered the federal gov't for bailing out the local and state gov't was the media kept reporting the armed gangs roaming the streets, shooting at rescuers in boats and helicopters. Yes, it now appears that essential aid did not go where it needed because the media reported that the conditions at the superdome were so deplorable that babies were being raped, children being killed, and bodies being stacked in the basement. The individuals trying to get the aid to the right place were fed misinformation the media.
    <wipes eyes> I'm gettin dizzy from all the spin! So FEMAs lousy performance is due to the [just say it.. LIBERAL] media? Classic! Dunno about you, but I'm pretty sure it's not a good idea that government base their actions on the media..


  15. cardio's Avatar
    Posts
    779 Posts
    Global Posts
    787 Global Posts
    #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by Joebar
    <wipes eyes> I'm gettin dizzy from all the spin! So FEMAs lousy performance is due to the [just say it.. LIBERAL] media? Classic! Dunno about you, but I'm pretty sure it's not a good idea that government base their actions on the media..
    Well, stop trying to spin so much. If you would go back and read the posts you will see that I have not defended FEMA or Brown or Nagin or Blanco or the media. I have stated numerous times that all should be held accountable. You on the other hand try to simply point fingers at the federal gov't and absolve the local and state of any failures. You quickly pointed out the reports of rapes, murders etc when it was convienant to show how horrible the federal respnse was, and what it was leading to but now that it is coming to light as a bunch of misinformation or outright lies you spin it and say we should have ignored the reports.
  16. #56  
  17. #57  
    ATM -- everything -- EVERYTHING that junior did before Rita that was different and additional to what he and his cronies did during Katrina was CONFESSION of their CRIMINAL malfeasance.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  18. #58  
    My truck is having its brakes worked on right now. Damn Bush!!
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  19. #59  
    wtf?!?! George Bush just caused my Treo to reset!
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  20. #60  
    The Dodgers would have won the West year, if not for that damn George Bush!
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Posting Permissions