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  1. #161  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Oh exalted, grand.....your presence is most graciously appreciated.

    You have brought to my attention, my failure to pay attention in civics class. The 2/3 matter is for dealing with the presidential veto.

    The legislative branch's opportunity to address (redress?) declaration of unconsitutionality is by way of initiating consitutional amendment, subject to passage and state ratification.

    By now, I really should know better than to post without googling

    sorry...

    did n't mean to seem quite so obnoxious

    presumptively the stuff that congress passes is constitutional -- until a judge rules otherwise --

    If the Supreme Court accepts the case and rules the law is in conflict with the constitution -- its null & void.

    If congress then passes an amendment -- lets say outlawing flag burning -- with a 2/3 vote of both houses, and 3/4 state legistatures vote for it as well (usually within a time limit of years) -- the constitution is amended.

    (I think the states need only a majority vote in their legislatures -- not sure ...)
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  2. #162  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    sorry...

    did n't mean to seem quite so obnoxious
    you weren't (in my opinion). I was harkening back (do people still hearken back?) to
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    first an Emperor -- now An Apostle !!!


    (I can now be addressed as Emperor Paul ...)
  3. #163  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    So, should religion be removed from the pledge, are you saying it would still be an issue? Just the fact of reciting it?

    I'm saying they're two different issues.

    (edited for grammer)
  4. #164  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    That may be so, but how would you explain coinage? There wasn't a Cold War, McCarthy-ism thing going on.

    Would have to research coins. Most of my reading on that subject relates to the paper currency.
  5. #165  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    I'm saying they're two different issues.
    Well, I know that, goof! My question was, well your opinion of the Pledge in general. I know you posted earlier how you felt in grade school, just wondering how you feel about a Pledge in general.

    Personally, I always thought it was a little bizarre when I was growing up. Images of Brown Shirts and stuff...but I was always a little off as a kid.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

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    #166  
    Quote Originally Posted by AnteL0pe
    So would you support religious marijuana use by Rastafarians?


    I understand that, religious intolerance isnt the only difference between Communism and the Capitalist Democratic Republic we have here in the US though. It wouldnt even make my "top 5 differences" list, that may just be me though.
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    I agree it is not in the top 5-10 or 15
    I take that as your personal beliefs that it's not important, and I respect that. But I believe it is on top of my "differences" list.
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    #167  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    ...but I was always a little off as a kid.
    That makes two of us.
  8. #168  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Would have to research coins. Most of my reading on that subject relates to the paper currency.
    I'd be interested to know when that started. It seems if it had been on coins, it would be on paper as well.



    I mean, The Russian Revolution hadn't even happened in 1914 (at least not the one typically associated with Communism.)
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  9. #169  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    you weren't (in my opinion). I was harkening back (do people still hearken back?) to

    absolution is granted ...
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  10. #170  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Well, I know that, goof! My question was, well your opinion of the Pledge in general. I know you posted earlier how you felt in grade school, just wondering how you feel about a Pledge in general.

    Personally, I always thought it was a little bizarre when I was growing up. Images of Brown Shirts and stuff...but I was always a little off as a kid.
    Yea, it could be seen as such. However, with or without the "under god" I'm not sure it can be forced then would not be an issue since it didn't include an environment of deity presented by a public institution of learning and socialization.
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    #171  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    I'd be interested to know when that started. It seems if it had been on coins, it would be on paper as well.



    I mean, The Russian Revolution hadn't even happened in 1914 (at least not the one typically associated with Communism.)
    I think it was started by the treasury secretary (Chase was his name?) during the civil war era.
  12. #172  
    Quote Originally Posted by naivete
    I think it was started by the treasury secretary (Chase was his name?) during the civil war era.
    Salmon Chase was Lincolns first. Perhaps it was him. If so, then it had been part of our currency for near a century by the time it made it's way onto paper. "Red Scare" talk seems irrelevant to me then in that case.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
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    #173  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Salmon Chase was Lincolns first. Perhaps it was him. If so, then it had been part of our currency for near a century by the time it made it's way onto paper. "Red Scare" talk seems irrelevant to me then in that case.
    Actually, the red scare solidifies that belief and that we should print "in god we trust" on our paper currency (in 1957 via a law passed by the 84th Congress) as well.
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    #174  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Salmon Chase was Lincolns first. Perhaps it was him. If so, then it had been part of our currency for near a century by the time it made it's way onto paper. "Red Scare" talk seems irrelevant to me then in that case.

    It was found that the Act of Congress dated January 18, 1837, prescribed the mottoes and devices that should be placed upon the coins of the United States. This meant that the mint could make no changes without the enactment of additional legislation by the Congress. In December 1863, the Director of the Mint submitted designs for new one-cent coin, two-cent coin, and three-cent coin to Secretary Chase for approval. He proposed that upon the designs either OUR COUNTRY; OUR GOD or GOD, OUR TRUST should appear as a motto on the coins. In a letter to the Mint Director on December 9, 1863, Secretary Chase stated:
    I approve your mottoes, only suggesting that on that with the Washington obverse the motto should begin with the word OUR, so as to read OUR GOD AND OUR COUNTRY. And on that with the shield, it should be changed so as to read: IN GOD WE TRUST.
    The Congress passed the Act of April 22, 1864. This legislation changed the composition of the one-cent coin and authorized the minting of the two-cent coin. The Mint Director was directed to develop the designs for these coins for final approval of the Secretary. IN GOD WE TRUST first appeared on the 1864 two-cent coin.

    Another Act of Congress passed on March 3, 1865. It allowed the Mint Director, with the Secretary's approval, to place the motto on all gold and silver coins that "shall admit the inscription thereon." Under the Act, the motto was placed on the gold double-eagle coin, the gold eagle coin, and the gold half-eagle coin. It was also placed on the silver dollar coin, the half-dollar coin and the quarter-dollar coin, and on the nickel three-cent coin beginning in 1866. Later, Congress passed the Coinage Act of February 12, 1873. It also said that the Secretary "may cause the motto IN GOD WE TRUST to be inscribed on such coins as shall admit of such motto."

    (edit for cite) http://www.treas.gov/education/fact-...we-trust.shtml
  15. #175  
    Quote Originally Posted by naivete
    Actually, the red scare solidifies that belief and that we should do that to paper currency (in 1957 via a law passed by the 84th Congress) as well.
    It may have solidified it, not really arguing that. My point was people had been walking around with "In God We Trust" in their pockets for a hundred years by then. It's not like there was a Religious Revolution all of a sudden, and bam, God is on money.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  16. #176  
    Quote Originally Posted by AnteL0pe
    Ok, just wanted everyone to be aware of this. And BTW, to some people the legalization of marijuana has everything to do with religious freedom. I'm not one of them, and clearly neither are you, but such blanket statements like yours are silly.
    It was a blanket statement on purpose, because 1) That's exactly how this country was founded. People weren't happy with how they were being treated so the packed up and moved and found a new life for themselves and 2) In this country, you still have the right to do that. If you're not happy, you don't have to put up with it. You can pack up and leave. Not everyone enjoys that freedom.

    But like I said, there are laws that supercede religious tenets. Ask the Muslim girl who just got her drivers license revoked because she refused to remove her veil for the photograph. Florida statutes state that your entire face must be clearly identified in the picture, and if that violates one of your religious tenets, so be it. Driving is a priviledge, not a right.

    What I'm tired of is the fact that 98% of this country has to put up with the sensitivities of 2% of the country, instead of the other way around. I haven't figured out yet when the tide turned that the needs of the few suddenly outweigh the needs of the many.

    Here's to hoping that Roberts gets confirmed before this reaches the Supreme Court (gulp).
    I'm back!
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    #177  
    Trying to remove the slogan in God we Trust is not new.

    Simply put, most Atheists don't like the "In God We Trust" slogan staring at us every time we pull out our wallets or purses. It has to go. But how?

    One of the first legal actions to challenge religious sloganeering of this type was made in 1978 by American Atheists founder Madalyn Murray O'Hair. In the case of MADALYN MURRAY O'HAIR et al. v. W. MICHAEL BLUMENTHAL, SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY, et al. (462 F. Supp. 19 -- W.D. Tex 1978), the court opined: "Its use is of a patriotic or ceremonial character and bears no true resemblance to a governmental sponsorship of religious exercise." The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit reached a similar conclusion in the 1970 case ARONOW v. UNITED STATES. Subsequent cases also fell short, even though they argued that the motto clearly encouraged religion and made a statement about god and theology. On September 14, 1988, then-President of American Atheists Jon Murray addressed the Subcommittee on Consumer Affairs and Coinage concerning proposals to redesign the nation's currency. At that time, Murray expressed concern about including "In God We Trust" on the national currency, suggesting instead a return to the secular "E Pluribus Unum" ("One from many") that was used earlier in the nation's history.
  18. #178  
    Thanx for digging that up, Cardio.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

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    #179  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Thanx for digging that up, Cardio.
    Not a problem, my father was a coin dealer so I have a novel interest in coins.
  20. #180  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Trying to remove the slogan in God we Trust is not new.

    Simply put, most Atheists don't like the "In God We Trust" slogan staring at us every time we pull out our wallets or purses. It has to go. But how?

    One of the first legal actions to challenge religious sloganeering of this type was made in 1978 by American Atheists founder Madalyn Murray O'Hair. In the case of MADALYN MURRAY O'HAIR et al. v. W. MICHAEL BLUMENTHAL, SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY, et al. (462 F. Supp. 19 -- W.D. Tex 1978), the court opined: "Its use is of a patriotic or ceremonial character and bears no true resemblance to a governmental sponsorship of religious exercise." The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit reached a similar conclusion in the 1970 case ARONOW v. UNITED STATES. Subsequent cases also fell short, even though they argued that the motto clearly encouraged religion and made a statement about god and theology. On September 14, 1988, then-President of American Atheists Jon Murray addressed the Subcommittee on Consumer Affairs and Coinage concerning proposals to redesign the nation's currency. At that time, Murray expressed concern about including "In God We Trust" on the national currency, suggesting instead a return to the secular "E Pluribus Unum" ("One from many") that was used earlier in the nation's history.
    God bless precedents.
    I'm back!
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