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  1. #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    What type of faith is the gov't promoting by allowing schools to recite the pledge?

    The promotion of deist religions.
  2. #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    We need to emphasize religion to show we are not communist? This makes zero sense.
    Ironically, that's why the word god is on our paper currency. To show we're not like those godless communists. Ah, you gotta love the cold war fallout.
  3. #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    I could agree with your argument if reciting the pledge was mandatory. I do not know of any public institution that requires an individual to recite the pledge.
    But as a public institution they shouldnt be sanctioning anything that promotes a belief in, or the existence of god. What if every day there was an announcement over the PA that students didnt have to partake in that said "there is no god, thank you have a good day." I know the example is extreme, but its equitable. If they are going to have principals, teachers, and students pledging allegiance to the flag (which i feel is silly in and of itself) thats fine, but god doesnt belong in there.

    This also raises the point of people who do want to pledge allegiance to the flag, but dont want to bring god into the equation, theyre kinda left out to dry.

    If there is speech that claims the existence of god it is infringing on the rights of those who dont believe in god. They might as well say "one nation under Allah."
    iPhone in the Washington DC area.
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    #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    We need to emphasize religion to show we are not communist? This makes zero sense.
    Take a look at the soviet national anthem. Their song talks about freedom. Our pledge talks about freedom. What separates us from them? Religion, perhaps?

    The Hymn of the Soviet Union

    Unbreakable Union of freeborn Republics,
    Great Russia has welded forever to stand.
    Created in struggle by will of the people,
    United and mighty, our Soviet land!

    Sing to the Motherland, home of the free,
    Bulwark of peoples in brotherhood strong.
    O Party of Lenin, the strength of the people,
    To Communism's triumph lead us on!

    Through tempests the sunrays of freedom have cheered us,
    Along the new path where great Lenin did lead.
    To a righteous cause he raised up the peoples,
    Inspired them to labor and valorous deed.
    [Or, the old way:
    Be true to the people, thus Stalin has reared us,
    Inspire us to labor and valorous deed!]

    Sing to the Motherland, home of the free,
    Bulwark of peoples in brotherhood strong.
    O Party of Lenin, the strength of the people,
    To Communism's triumph lead us on!

    In the vict'ry of Communism's deathless ideal,
    We see the future of our dear land.
    And to her fluttering scarlet banner,
    Selflessly true we always shall stand!
  5. #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    The obivous would be a holiday on Dec. 25th recognizing the birth of Jesus Christ, the holiday that is celebrated on Jan. 1st, since it recognizes the beginning of a new calender year AD (year of our Lord) instead of BC. Someone will have to develop a new calender
    These are finer points, but still they could be addressed. With Christmas, I just choose to celebrate the winter solstice and if that is when the govt lets me off work, whatever, fine by me. If someone feels that is out of line with their beliefs then take a number, the govt doesnt give dy off for Hanukah or Kwanza, or any other non-christian winter holiday.

    In terms of the calendar, thats just become a generally accepted time standard.

    But lets keep this rolling, “In God We Trust” should also come off of all monetary items here in the US as well IMHO.
    iPhone in the Washington DC area.
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    #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    The promotion of deist religions.
    OK, I will agree that it recognizes a deist religion exists, however I have the freedom of religion to make that statement in a public place, would you not agree.
  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    So why not just change it to "One nation, indivisible..."?
    You all do realize that this is the way it originally read. The "under god" addition was made decades later.
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    #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Ironically, that's why the word god is on our paper currency. To show we're not like those godless communists. Ah, you gotta love the cold war fallout.
    Even though I see no evil in the statement being on our currency this reasoning does not make sense to me.
  9. #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    OK, I will agree that it recognizes a deist religion exists, however I have the freedom of religion to make that statement in a public place, would you not agree.
    Yes, and the rest of us have the freedom to not have our government dictate through a published "pledge of allegiance" that a god exists.

    I have no problem with anyone coming up with their own Pledge of Allegiance, in fact I think it may actually mean something to people if they created their own. I do have a problem with a government sanctioned Pledge that supports the existence of a god.
    iPhone in the Washington DC area.
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    #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by AnteL0pe
    But as a public institution they shouldnt be sanctioning anything that promotes a belief in, or the existence of god. What if every day there was an announcement over the PA that students didnt have to partake in that said "there is no god, thank you have a good day." I know the example is extreme, but its equitable. If they are going to have principals, teachers, and students pledging allegiance to the flag (which i feel is silly in and of itself) thats fine, but god doesnt belong in there.

    This also raises the point of people who do want to pledge allegiance to the flag, but dont want to bring god into the equation, theyre kinda left out to dry.

    If there is speech that claims the existence of god it is infringing on the rights of those who dont believe in god. They might as well say "one nation under Allah."
    Our constitution gives them the freedom to say there is no god, that Allah is god, that Buddah is god, that there is an unkown god, and under god. If someone wants to pledge allegiance to the flag without saying under god, go for it, if someone does not want to pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states because they are not a citizen, don't recite it. It is not mandatory.
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    #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by naivete
    Take a look at the soviet national anthem. Their song talks about freedom. Our pledge talks about freedom. What separates us from them? Religion, perhaps?

    The Hymn of the Soviet Union

    Unbreakable Union of freeborn Republics,
    Great Russia has welded forever to stand.
    Created in struggle by will of the people,
    United and mighty, our Soviet land!

    Sing to the Motherland, home of the free,
    Bulwark of peoples in brotherhood strong.
    O Party of Lenin, the strength of the people,
    To Communism's triumph lead us on!

    Through tempests the sunrays of freedom have cheered us,
    Along the new path where great Lenin did lead.
    To a righteous cause he raised up the peoples,
    Inspired them to labor and valorous deed.
    [Or, the old way:
    Be true to the people, thus Stalin has reared us,
    Inspire us to labor and valorous deed!]

    Sing to the Motherland, home of the free,
    Bulwark of peoples in brotherhood strong.
    O Party of Lenin, the strength of the people,
    To Communism's triumph lead us on!

    In the vict'ry of Communism's deathless ideal,
    We see the future of our dear land.
    And to her fluttering scarlet banner,
    Selflessly true we always shall stand!
    I am not sure that the only thing that seperates us from communisim is our freedom of religion.
  12. NRG
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    #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by naivete
    Take a look at the soviet national anthem. Their song talks about freedom. Our pledge talks about freedom. What separates us from them? Religion, perhaps?

    The Hymn of the Soviet Union

    Unbreakable Union of freeborn Republics,
    Great Russia has welded forever to stand.
    Created in struggle by will of the people,
    United and mighty, our Soviet land!

    Sing to the Motherland, home of the free,
    Bulwark of peoples in brotherhood strong.
    O Party of Lenin, the strength of the people,
    To Communism's triumph lead us on!

    Through tempests the sunrays of freedom have cheered us,
    Along the new path where great Lenin did lead.
    To a righteous cause he raised up the peoples,
    Inspired them to labor and valorous deed.
    [Or, the old way:
    Be true to the people, thus Stalin has reared us,
    Inspire us to labor and valorous deed!]

    Sing to the Motherland, home of the free,
    Bulwark of peoples in brotherhood strong.
    O Party of Lenin, the strength of the people,
    To Communism's triumph lead us on!

    In the vict'ry of Communism's deathless ideal,
    We see the future of our dear land.
    And to her fluttering scarlet banner,
    Selflessly true we always shall stand!
    Wrong. There problem is they have no recourse if their rights are violated.
  13. NRG
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    #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by AnteL0pe
    You all do realize that this is the way it originally read. The "under god" addition was made decades later.
    Yes, I posted the original a couple of posts up.
  14. cardio's Avatar
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    #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by AnteL0pe
    These are finer points, but still they could be addressed. With Christmas, I just choose to celebrate the winter solstice and if that is when the govt lets me off work, whatever, fine by me. If someone feels that is out of line with their beliefs then take a number, the govt doesnt give dy off for Hanukah or Kwanza, or any other non-christian winter holiday.

    In terms of the calendar, thats just become a generally accepted time standard.

    But lets keep this rolling, “In God We Trust” should also come off of all monetary items here in the US as well IMHO.
    But, by just changing the words to winter soltice and taking the day off you support christmas as a legit holiday. That is no different than people who do not celebrate halloween because of the pervieved wickedness and instead go to harvest festival at church, they still celebrate the same day, the same time, they justify it by changing the name.

    By accepting the generally accepted time standard you recognize that Jesus Christ was so important that the entire calendar revolves around the year of His birth.
  15. #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Our constitution gives them the freedom to say there is no god, that Allah is god, that Buddah is god, that there is an unkown god, and under god. If someone wants to pledge allegiance to the flag without saying under god, go for it, if someone does not want to pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states because they are not a citizen, don't recite it. It is not mandatory.
    It isnt about what people say when they say the Pledge, its about the verbiage that the Government approves of. People would be up in arms in the Govt put out a version saying "one nation, under Satan" because that alienates citizens and infringes on their rights. The same is the case when it says "under god"

    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    But, by just changing the words to winter soltice and taking the day off you support christmas as a legit holiday.
    No i dont, just as the majority of people dont. People view christmas as a time to put up a tree (a pagan tradition celebrating the winter solstice) and buy each other gifts (celebrating capitalism i guess), most people dont view it as a celebration of Christs birth. And I count many "christians" in those numbers. I don't support Christmas as a legit holiday, but if the govt is giving me a day off work I'm gonna take it. Just like a lot of Jewish Americans who arent celebrating Christmas. Sure, some of them work, but most just take the day off. Why not?

    That is no different than people who do not celebrate halloween because of the pervieved wickedness and instead go to harvest festival at church, they still celebrate the same day, the same time, they justify it by changing the name.
    Its not a justification, its the meaning behind your motives. If my motives are not to celebrate the birth of Christ then guess what? No matter what day I take off of work I'm still not celebrating the birth of Christ.

    By accepting the generally accepted time standard you recognize that Jesus Christ was so important that the entire calendar revolves around the year of His birth.
    Ummm, again, no I do not. I accept that to simplify my life and to stay on the "same page" as everyone else I interact with it makes sense to follow the standard calendar. What you are saying isnt making much sense. Thats like saying the only reason I'm not killing people is because of the 10 commandments, which again is not the case.
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    #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by AnteL0pe
    You all do realize that this is the way it originally read. The "under god" addition was made decades later.
    Yes. I also posted that it's too socialistic and we need to emphasize religious expression.

    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Wrong. There problem is they have no recourse if their rights are violated.
    We would have no recourse if our freedom of religious expression is violated.
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    #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    I am not sure that the only thing that seperates us from communisim is our freedom of religion.
    It's probably not the only thing, but it's crucial.
  18. #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    OK, I will agree that it recognizes a deist religion exists, however I have the freedom of religion to make that statement in a public place, would you not agree.

    Yup! In fact all those little school children can say any religious crap they want to. They just can't be lead in a scholl activity which does the same.

    You just might be catching onto this thing cardio!
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    #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by AnteL0pe
    It isnt about what people say when they say the Pledge, its about the verbiage that the Government approves of. People would be up in arms in the Govt put out a version saying "one nation, under Satan" because that alienates citizens and infringes on their rights. The same is the case when it says "under god"


    No i dont, just as the majority of people dont. People view christmas as a time to put up a tree (a pagan tradition celebrating the winter solstice) and buy each other gifts (celebrating capitalism i guess), most people dont view it as a celebration of Christs birth. And I count many "christians" in those numbers. I don't support Christmas as a legit holiday, but if the govt is giving me a day off work I'm gonna take it. Just like a lot of Jewish Americans who arent celebrating Christmas. Sure, some of them work, but most just take the day off. Why not?


    Its not a justification, its the meaning behind your motives. If my motives are not to celebrate the birth of Christ then guess what? No matter what day I take off of work I'm still not celebrating the birth of Christ.


    Ummm, again, no I do not. I accept that to simplify my life and to stay on the "same page" as everyone else I interact with it makes sense to follow the standard calendar. What you are saying isnt making much sense. Thats like saying the only reason I'm not killing people is because of the 10 commandments, which again is not the case.
    Well, we will have to agree to disagree. I think if you are going to claim the statement one nation under god violates the constitution because it references the belief in a religion you should use that as your principle in all areas and not pick and choose for simplification of life.
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    #120  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Yup! In fact all those little school children can say any religious crap they want to. They just can't be lead in a scholl activity which does the same.

    You just might be catching onto this thing cardio!
    They can be lead, they can not be forced. Big difference

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