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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by santa
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MVT
    Is there one person who would argue that without the words "under God" there is no problem in requiring our schools to recite the pledge?


    I'm not a big fan of the pledge. But if the words "under God" were taken out, I'd have much less of an issue with it.
    Im a HUGE fan of the pledge. But I recognize the argument and how people of non-faith would be offended being required to recite it.
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  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    "My bologna has a first name, it's O-S-C-A-R..."

    I think this has more meaning to most elementary school kids than does the Pledge. Sad to say, but I doubt most kids have a clue what the Pledge is...
    Probably so...but that just shows the depth and strength of commerical advertising on children.
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  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    "My bologna has a first name, it's O-S-C-A-R..."

    I think this has more meaning to most elementary school kids than does the Pledge. Sad to say, but I doubt most kids have a clue what the Pledge is...
    I remember as early as grade 6 thinking about what a person who did not believe in a god would be feeling during the recitation of the altered Pledge.

    And I was in catholic school.
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    I remember as early as grade 6 thinking about what a person who did not believe in a god would be feeling during the recitation of the altered Pledge.

    And I was in catholic school.
    I have to ask the question (in all earnestness)...

    ... on this forum, is there a positive correlation between former Catholic School attendees and present atheists?

    I just think I see a pattern with no value judgements one way or the other.
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  5. #45  
    I was originally TOTALLY flabbergasted at this ruling and very perturbed by it until I found out that the phrase "Under God" was only added to the Pledge of Allegiance in the 1950's I believe. If that is the case, then for most of the country's history, there was never this precendent taken in a national oath. Thus, a removal of the phrase would be more in line with the original Oath of Allegience taken by American's pre-1950...
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  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    No, I took your statement ( When will that pesky Constitution leave them alone) to imply the constitution supported seperation of chuch and state. If that is not what you meant, my apology, if that was your intent please cite

    Again this has been debated here already and I will not go through the exact same debate with the same person when this was hashed down to it's very core.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    I have to ask the question (in all earnestness)...

    ... on this forum, is there a positive correlation between former Catholic School attendees and present atheists?

    I just think I see a pattern with no value judgements one way or the other.
    I would say there is in general, not just on this board. Some jokingly refer to it as "recovering catholic".
  8. z3bum's Avatar
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    #48  
    So what the judge is really saying is that people can live in the USA, benefit from our freedoms, yet when called upon, turn their backs on the country! I will always pledge alleigence to America, the flag, and my countrymen (and babes... I mean women!) Federal Frigging judge be damned! If you don't want to pledge alliegence to the country that provides for you, feel free to get the he** out...

    My conservative two cents.. ph, and I believe in God, but respect those rights of those who don't, so perhaps the words 'Under God' should be removed...
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  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by z3bum
    My conservative two cents.. ph, and I believe in God, but respect those rights of those who don't, so perhaps the words 'Under God' should be removed...
    Gee, Ya think?
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    #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    "My bologna has a first name, it's O-S-C-A-R..."

    I think this has more meaning to most elementary school kids than does the Pledge. Sad to say, but I doubt most kids have a clue what the Pledge is...
    Hey, I used to be one of them kids.
  11. naivete's Avatar
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    #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I think the courts have looked at this argument and have determined that while you and I as adults can be expected to withstand the pressures of our peers, arguably younger children seem to be at least a little more 'impressionable'.
    Okay. Then how about not saying a thing when "under god" is being said?
  12. NRG
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    #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    I was originally TOTALLY flabbergasted at this ruling and very perturbed by it until I found out that the phrase "Under God" was only added to the Pledge of Allegiance in the 1950's I believe. If that is the case, then for most of the country's history, there was never this precendent taken in a national oath. Thus, a removal of the phrase would be more in line with the original Oath of Allegience taken by American's pre-1950...
    There are a few things that were added during the 50's - 60's that you might be surprised at. "In God We Trust" was added to money around this time, they created a prayer room at the capitol, "one nation under god" was added around the same timeframe, etc. Here is an interesting read on how some of these things came about:

    Source: Slate

    The Pledge of Allegiance
    Why we're not one nation "under God."

    By David Greenberg
    Updated Friday, June 28, 2002, at 1:39 PM PM

    -snip-

    The efforts to bring God into the state reached their peak during the so-called "religious revival" of the 1950s. It was a time when Norman Vincent Peale grafted religion onto the era's feel-good consumerism in his best-selling The Power of Positive Thinking; when Billy Graham rose to fame as a Red-baiter who warned that Americans would perish in a nuclear holocaust unless they embraced Jesus Christ; when Secretary of State John Foster Dulles believed that the United States should oppose communism not because the Soviet Union was a totalitarian regime but because its leaders were atheists.

    Hand in hand with the Red Scare, to which it was inextricably linked, the new religiosity overran Washington. Politicians outbid one another to prove their piety. President Eisenhower inaugurated that Washington staple: the prayer breakfast. Congress created a prayer room in the Capitol. In 1955, with Ike's support, Congress added the words "In God We Trust" on all paper money. In 1956 it made the same four words the nation's official motto, replacing "E Pluribus Unum." Legislators introduced Constitutional amendments to state that Americans obeyed "the authority and law of Jesus Christ."

    The campaign to add "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance was part of this movement. It's unclear precisely where the idea originated, but one driving force was the Catholic fraternal society the Knights of Columbus. In the early '50s the Knights themselves adopted the God-infused pledge for use in their own meetings, and members bombarded Congress with calls for the United States to do the same. Other fraternal, religious, and veterans clubs backed the idea. In April 1953, Rep. Louis Rabaut, D-Mich., formally proposed the alteration of the pledge in a bill he introduced to Congress.

    The "under God" movement didn't take off, however, until the next year, when it was endorsed by the Rev. George M. Docherty, the pastor of the Presbyterian church in Washington that Eisenhower attended. In February 1954, Docherty gave a sermon—with the president in the pew before him—arguing that apart from "the United States of America," the pledge "could be the pledge of any country." He added, "I could hear little Moscovites [sic] repeat a similar pledge to their hammer-and-sickle flag with equal solemnity." Perhaps forgetting that "liberty and justice for all" was not the norm in Moscow, Docherty urged the inclusion of "under God" in the pledge to denote what he felt was special about the United States.

    The ensuing congressional speechifying—debate would be a misnomer, given the near-unanimity of opinion—offered more proof that the point of the bill was to promote religion. The legislative history of the 1954 act stated that the hope was to "acknowledge the dependence of our people and our Government upon … the Creator … [and] deny the atheistic and materialistic concept of communism." In signing the bill on June 14, 1954, Flag Day, Eisenhower delighted in the fact that from then on, "millions of our schoolchildren will daily proclaim in every city and town … the dedication of our nation and our people to the Almighty." That the nation, constitutionally speaking, was in fact dedicated to the opposite proposition seemed to escape the president.

    -snip-
    Last edited by NRG; 09/15/2005 at 08:30 AM.
  13. NRG
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    #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by naivete
    Okay. Then how about not saying a thing when "under god" is being said?
    How bout being an originalist and returning the pledge to it's original state (i.e. w/o "one nation under god")? Got to love using the right's own verbage againist them.
  14. #54  
    I have an idea for those who are vehemently against "under God" in the Pledge. I'll send you my Paypal account, and you can wire all of your money on over to me. It would be highly hypocritical of you to denounce the Pledge as violating the Constitution (which, as we all know but try to pretend otherwise, it doesn't), but yet walk around with a pocketful of $20s. So without the need to involve the already overburdened courts system, I'll relieve you of your offensive bills. That way you'll be able to have a clear conscience knowing that your "rights" haven't been violated.

    Maybe I'll transfer some of it into Canadian dollars or pesos so that you won't be completely destitute. Deal?

    Newdow is a perfect example of how overly litigious our society has become.
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  15. #55  
    They should probably not take Christmas off either...in fact when are the Newdows going to petition the Courts to remove X-Mas as a National Holiday??
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  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    I have an idea for those who are vehemently against "under God" in the Pledge. I'll send you my Paypal account, and you can wire all of your money on over to me. It would be highly hypocritical of you to denounce the Pledge as violating the Constitution (which, as we all know but try to pretend otherwise, it doesn't), but yet walk around with a pocketful of $20s. So without the need to involve the already overburdened courts system, I'll relieve you of your offensive bills. That way you'll be able to have a clear conscience knowing that your "rights" haven't been violated.

    Maybe I'll transfer some of it into Canadian dollars or pesos so that you won't be completely destitute. Deal?

    Newdow is a perfect example of how overly litigious our society has become.
    Well with this ruling as a precedent they may have a good chance in getting those statements off money too..
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  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    They should probably not take Christmas off either...in fact when are the Newdows going to petition the Courts to remove X-Mas as a National Holiday??
    I don't believe Macy's uses the word "Christmas" in their stores anymore. There was a real backlash down here last Christmas about the sanitizing of the holiday season.

    He's on a roll, I'm sure that's not far behind......
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  18. NRG
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    #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    I have an idea for those who are vehemently against "under God" in the Pledge. I'll send you my Paypal account, and you can wire all of your money on over to me. It would be highly hypocritical of you to denounce the Pledge as violating the Constitution (which, as we all know but try to pretend otherwise, it doesn't), but yet walk around with a pocketful of $20s. So without the need to involve the already overburdened courts system, I'll relieve you of your offensive bills. That way you'll be able to have a clear conscience knowing that your "rights" haven't been violated.
    I would expect this is where it will head next, the money. As stated above if they find the "under god" bit to be unconstitutional, then the money would be the next stepping stone. As the way I see it, it (In God We Trust) was added during the 50's around the whole "religious revival" time, same time as the pledge admen. So the way I look at it, is this guy Newdow is just trying to return America to her original state and out of the grips of religion, mainly "Christian".

    Maybe I'll transfer some of it into Canadian dollars or pesos so that you won't be completely destitute. Deal?
    Newdow is a perfect example of how overly litigious our society has become.
    I agree.
  19. #59  
    "one nation under god" It does not specify what god one nation is under. Most religion has a particular god. So not being able to recite what the nation(US) was built on is a bunch of crap. I will stand and say it proudly because I am an American!!!


    I pledge Allegiance to the flag
    of the United States of America
    and to the Republic for which it stands,
    one nation under God, indivisible,
    with Liberty and Justice for all.


    Amen... May god bless us all!
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    Well with this ruling as a precedent they may have a good chance in getting those statements off money too..
    Since he's 0-1 in Supreme Court appeals (and I'm confident my boy John Roberts wouldn't allow it to happen), I'm not too worried about it.

    But the appeals process is slow and arduous, so the least I can do is relieve the burden from my liberal friends much faster.
    I'm back!
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