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  1. #341  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    There is no question on your stance. Anything remotely related to christian beliefs must be purged, all other religous belief systems are OK to be in the public school. ANd people accuse christians of being hypocritical
    It's hard to believe that you indeed do not see the difference between telling kids about Greek mythology and asking them to stand up and recite the POA.

    Do you think the kids singing Rudolf the Red Nose Reindeer makes them believe in red nose reindeers? Probably not, right, so you don't mind about them singing such songs. But what if the teacher of your kid makes them stand up, salute and recite something like "I pledge allegiance to our great nation, protected by Rudolf the red nose reindeer, ..." THAT would make you feel uncomfortable, right?

    What if your kids would recite "one nation, under Allah" - Allah means god, too, so what's the difference? How about "under God" from Monday to Thursday, and on Fridays you change God in turn to Allah, Jahwe, Buddha, "Laws of Nature" etc. in order to make clear that it is not a divisive thing...

    The point is you WANT the pledge to be a Christian thing, you WANT the kids to emphazise that the US are governed by a Christian majority. Why not admit it, and accept the consequences?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  2. #342  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    That's fine. However, do you agree that the general population agreed with the founders that these ideas are not only "good ideas" but in fact unalienable rights endowed by the Creator?
    No, I think the people followed the ideas of equality, liberty from oppression, pursuit of happiness etc. because they realised that those are good ideas. They realized that the philosophies and political ideas of the Age of Enlightenment developed in the 18th century by people like Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Immanuel Kant, Voltaire, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin and many others, were very promising for their lives - in fact, they were.

    As we have already discussed, those who wrote the Declaration of Independence claimed that their ideas were "self-evident". They had not claimed that those ideas were Christian ideas, or that they had found those ideas in the Bible, for the simple reason that none of these ideas stem from the Bible or from Christian principles.

    Of course you can go on and on with asking me questions about whether or not I think this or that was the case, but I think it is getting a bit tedious, and I would really appreciate it if you would come to the point and please tell us which Christian principle was instrumental in founding the USA, because that is what you and also others here have claimed repeatedly, although, judging from the huge story you have been making about answering this simple question, it does not seem to be the case.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  3. #343  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    There is no question on your stance. Anything remotely related to christian beliefs must be purged, all other religous belief systems are OK to be in the public school. ANd people accuse christians of being hypocritical
    Wow you managed to totally misrepresent my stance, take a jab at me, make yourself look foolish, and avoid answering my question all in about 35 words. Nice job.

    The difference between that or the Pledge is that the Pledge is sanctioned by the federal government, it is asked of all public school students that they stand and recite the Pledge, and it claims that our nation is "under god." How is it not clear that that statement implies that there is a god?!
    Care to answer that one?

    Quote Originally Posted by AnteL0pe
    The real question to me that has yet to be asked here is this: Why keep the phrase "under god"? It clearly cant be to preserve some sacred document, the original writing didnt mention god at all. So someone tell me, what is the reason for keeping the "under god" line?
    Or this one from a few pages back?
    iPhone in the Washington DC area.
  4. #344  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    No, I think the people followed the ideas of equality, liberty from oppression, pursuit of happiness etc. because they realised that those are good ideas. They realized that the philosophies and political ideas of the Age of Enlightenment developed in the 18th century by people like Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Immanuel Kant, Voltaire, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin and many others, were very promising for their lives - in fact, they were....
    We have a dilemma. In as much as you don't agree that the population consented to the Declaration of Independence, my subsequent points will be without merit. However, I remain committed to addressing your basic question.

    So, please help me understand how you reached the conclusion that the population did not subscribe to the tenets of the very Declaration that they ratified.
  5. #345  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    We have a dilemma. ... However, I remain committed to addressing your basic question.
    WE don't have a dilemma, YOU have one. You claimed that the US are based on Christian principles, but you can't name a single one.

    Time to stop asking questions back: MAKE YOUR POINT NOW, state which Christian principles the US are founded on...

    - Love your enemies?
    - Jesus is the saviour?
    - Turn the other cheek?
    - ...

    In case you cannot find a Christian principle which was instrumental in the founding of your country, you can, of course, also admit that you were wrong. Or you can continue to avoid the question, but frankly, that comes down to the same thing.



    P.S.: I've added a few quotes from Thomas Jefferson, the main author of the Declaration of Independence, since you like to quote from that document:

    Our civil rights have no dependence upon our religious opinions more than our opinions in physics or geometry.
    -- Thomas Jefferson, Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. Papers, 2:545

    I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition [Christianity] one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and mythologies.
    -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Woods (undated), referring to "our particular superstition," Christianity, from John E. Remsburg, Six Historic Americans: Thomas Jefferson, quoted from Franklin Steiner, Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents (1936), "Thomas Jefferson, Freethinker"

    The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.
    -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823, quoted from James A. Haught, "Breaking the Last Taboo" (1996)
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  6. cardio's Avatar
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    #346  
    Quote Originally Posted by AnteL0pe
    Wow you managed to totally misrepresent my stance, take a jab at me, make yourself look foolish, and avoid answering my question all in about 35 words. Nice job.


    Care to answer that one?


    Or this one from a few pages back?
    Your funny, not sure that is what you were going for though. I believe your original argument was the mention of a god indicates an endorsement of religion. You seem to have bailed on that now. Now, you say it is OK to mention a god, or gods or I guess God as long as it is not sanctioned by the federal Gov't. You do realize, don't you, that anything taught in public school is sanctioned by the gov't. All curriculum must be approved by the school board (elected officials) who have to adhere to federal guidelines as to what is the minimum standard and what is appropriate to be taught. Private schools also have to folow the guidelines, but without the elected school board input or oversight.

    Don't know what to tell ya.
  7. #347  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    WE don't have a dilemma, YOU have one. You claimed that the US are based on Christian principles, but you can't name a single one.

    Time to stop asking questions back: MAKE YOUR POINT NOW, state which Christian principles the US are founded on...

    - Love your enemies?
    - Jesus is the saviour?
    - Turn the other cheek?
    - ...

    In case you cannot find a Christian principle which was instrumental in the founding of your country, you can, of course, also admit that you were wrong. Or you can continue to avoid the question, but frankly, that comes down to the same thing.



    P.S.: I've added a few quotes from Thomas Jefferson, the main author of the Declaration of Independence, since you like to quote from that document:

    Our civil rights have no dependence upon our religious opinions more than our opinions in physics or geometry.
    -- Thomas Jefferson, Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. Papers, 2:545

    I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition [Christianity] one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and mythologies.
    -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Woods (undated), referring to "our particular superstition," Christianity, from John E. Remsburg, Six Historic Americans: Thomas Jefferson, quoted from Franklin Steiner, Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents (1936), "Thomas Jefferson, Freethinker"

    The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.
    -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823, quoted from James A. Haught, "Breaking the Last Taboo" (1996)
    Your position is clear. I remain committed to expressing mine. However, I would like to avoid the typical exchanges that occur on this forum where members express the same opinions over and over without any progress.

    Thus far, we have agreed on 4 points. You have expressed disagreement on the fifth. Rather than continue to build your rebuttal, perhaps you would be so kind as to help me understand your objection on point 5. Or, as I requested previously:

    please help me understand how you reached the conclusion that the population did not subscribe to the tenets of the very Declaration that they ratified.
  8. cardio's Avatar
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    #348  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    It's hard to believe that you indeed do not see the difference between telling kids about Greek mythology and asking them to stand up and recite the POA.

    Do you think the kids singing Rudolf the Red Nose Reindeer makes them believe in red nose reindeers? Probably not, right, so you don't mind about them singing such songs. But what if the teacher of your kid makes them stand up, salute and recite something like "I pledge allegiance to our great nation, protected by Rudolf the red nose reindeer, ..." THAT would make you feel uncomfortable, right?

    What if your kids would recite "one nation, under Allah" - Allah means god, too, so what's the difference? How about "under God" from Monday to Thursday, and on Fridays you change God in turn to Allah, Jahwe, Buddha, "Laws of Nature" etc. in order to make clear that it is not a divisive thing...

    The point is you WANT the pledge to be a Christian thing, you WANT the kids to emphazise that the US are governed by a Christian majority. Why not admit it, and accept the consequences?
    Going back to the argument that the mention of god endorses a religion (again), if you want to make that stance, make it and adhere to it across the board. If that is your stance don't pick and choose when to apply it.

    I am not the one arguing it is a christian pledge, it is secular, to a secular flag. You keep saying it is christian, read your own post.
  9. #349  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Your funny, not sure that is what you were going for though.
    Um you got me there?

    I believe your original argument was the mention of a god indicates an endorsement of religion. You seem to have bailed on that now.
    Nope, let me refresh you on my post from 9-15.
    Quote Originally Posted by AnteL0pe
    But it also infringes on my rights by stating that we are one nation under "god", thereby acknowledging the existence of a "god" which is contrary to my theological beliefs. The government can not support a theological belief system in such a blatant way that is 100% contradictory to my own.
    I never said that the "mention" of god indicated an endorsement of religion. I said that government endorsed speech promoting the existence of god is exclusionary to those Americans who dont believe any god(s) exist.

    Now, you say it is OK to mention a god, or gods or I guess God as long as it is not sanctioned by the federal Gov't. You do realize, don't you, that anything taught in public school is sanctioned by the gov't.
    Yes im well aware, thanks for pointing that out. As another poster said above, if you cant see the difference between teaching Greek history, and religious indoctrination bound up with a pledge of allegiance to ones country I really cant help you or continue debating this with you. Your blinders are on too tight if thats the case.

    Don't know what to tell ya.
    How about just answering the questions I posed above?
    iPhone in the Washington DC area.
  10. #350  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    I am not the one arguing it is a christian pledge, it is secular, to a secular flag. You keep saying it is christian, read your own post.
    If its secular then why do we need to mention god when pledging allegiance to it?
    iPhone in the Washington DC area.
  11. #351  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Your position is clear. I remain committed to expressing mine. However, I would like to avoid the typical exchanges that occur on this forum where members express the same opinions over and over without any progress.

    Thus far, we have agreed on 4 points. You have expressed disagreement on the fifth. Rather than continue to build your rebuttal, perhaps you would be so kind as to help me understand your objection on point 5.
    Shopharim, this is getting very tedious. By now you have proven beyond doubt that you cannot find any Christian principles which were instrumental for the founding of the US. This is because there aren't any. Face it, or (for the last time), please make your points, in case you have any, and name the Christian principles. Give us a list, some quotes, whatever.

    Somehow I get the feeling that now you will say something like "there you have it, I know the Christian principles on which the US are based on, but since you got tired of answering my questions about the Declaration of Independence after only two days, I am not going to tell". Fair enough, let's all pretend there are some, you know them, but they are secret, so you can't share your knowledge.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  12. #352  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Shopharim, this is getting very tedious. By now you have proven beyond doubt that you cannot find any Christian principles which were instrumental for the founding of the US. This is because there aren't any. Face it, or (for the last time), please make your points, in case you have any, and name the Christian principles. Give us a list, some quotes, whatever.

    Somehow I get the feeling that now you will say something like "there you have it, I know the Christian principles on which the US are based on, but since you got tired of answering my questions about the Declaration of Independence after only two days, I am not going to tell". Fair enough, let's all pretend there are some, you know them, but they are secret, so you can't share your knowledge.
    We have found another point of agreement: Thoughtful deliberation is tedious.

    My questions, though, have been straight forward. My commitment to make my case has been repeated. Therefore, I'm uncertain as to why you insist on jumping to a conclusion.

    I admit, that if the general population did not agree with the declaration that they themselves ratified, it would be difficult to go on to make the case that the charter documents were based on any principles, let alone christian or biblical principles. Thus, I am interested in understanding how you came to that conclusion.
  13. #353  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    I admit, that if the general population did not agree with the declaration that they themselves ratified,
    It is totally obvious that the majority of the population agrees with the declaration, that goes without saying and was never disputed
    it would be difficult to go on to make the case that the charter documents were based on any principles,
    that is not the case, the question of whether there are any principles involved is independent of the question whether the population agrees or not, but that is irrelevant here.
    let alone christian or biblical principles.
    Did I just read Christian or biblical principles? Please state them!

    And, for the n-th time: the pursuit of happiness, liberty and the like are not Christian principles, regardless of whether those rights are endowed by a Creator or not (according to those who signed the declaration of independence, or according to the general population).

    Btw, the question of which Christian principles played a role in the founding of the USA is independent of my view about what is written in the Declaration of Independence and why, so also asking me questions about the Declaration of Independence for several days more will not get you anywhere.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  14. #354  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    It is totally obvious that the majority of the population agrees with the declaration, that goes without saying and was never disputed...
    I agree with you. i was not sure it was obvious to you when I read your earlier response to the question:
    No, I think the people followed the ideas of equality, liberty from oppression, pursuit of happiness etc. because they realised that those are good ideas. They realized that the philosophies and political ideas of the Age of Enlightenment developed in the 18th century by people like Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Immanuel Kant, Voltaire, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin and many others, were very promising for their lives - in fact, they were.
    However, I see that we are in agreement.

    Having established a baseline regarding the sentiments of the authors and the general population as expressed in the Declaration of Independence, let's begin addressing christian principles in the charter documents:

    Declaration of Independence
    1. There is a creator
    2. All men are created
    3. All men are equal
    4. Rights of men are derived from their creator
    5. Right to life
    6. All men are inherently free

    [gotta go stay tuned]
  15. #355  
    Clulup in another thread :
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I never doubted that many founders were Christians, but that does not mean Christian principles were of importance for the constitution or other foundations of the US.
    This is a key point that we agree on, is that most of them either were Christians, held Christian values, or even belonged to specific and varying denominations. When you are conducting anything in your life with a strong spiritual life, it has a bearing and influence on everything else you do in your life. I believe that anyone with a strong Christian belief would agree that it is hard to go against your belief system just because you are at work, on vacation, or starting a new gov. John Quincy Adams stated on June 28, 1813:

    “The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity…I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and the attributes of God.”
    I am in no way, and never had indicated, that they wrote the constitution in favor of Christianity. Because of the fact that a lot of the population started there because of religious persecution was a major influence to make sure that did not happen. They set it out so that everyone can choose to believe in whatever religion they wanted to, whether Atheist or Islam and any thing or specific sect in between. But, the fact that Christianity was a part of their life, it is inescapable that the principles it taught are the principles they tried to live by and in turn are principles in their daily conduct that would influence the creation of this new government.

    It is no more controversial as saying that Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, etc... governments have at one time been based on Muslim principles when they were originally founded.....except in those cases they made sure the main, if not the only choice, for the people was only Muslim and did not offer the religious freedoms that our founders offered us.

    Again....I think most of us are in no saying that the Constitution is Christian biased, as it is not. We are not saying that we are a mono-denominational Christian society, as we never have been. The Constitution is written to support the religious freedom of ALL religions. But if we agree that at least most of the framers had some Christian or at least religious or spiritual foundation or dedication in their personal lives......then do you then think that they really threw out all of their own personal principles to write the founding documents of this country? I would think that most people would hold those principles of basic conducts that they live by as a resource when establishing a totally new gov or do you think that they totally disregarded their total base of principles when writing these docs.....whether they were based in an actual organization, just a personal belief in Christ, or even in simply understanding of a Superior Being (which nearly all of the founders have subscribed to one form of this or another). If nothing else this shows the wisdom of our founding fathers as they did not try to impose their own personal beliefs on a new nation, but gave their new nation the opportunity to have each citizen decide for themselves.

    After pulling out a couple books for reference and quick search, Here are just some of the FACTS that you were asking for.......

    In the Declaration of Independence, God gets several nods: a reference to "the Laws of Nature and Nature's God," and the famous line about men being "endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights." Both of these refer to faith based principles in the original doc that started it all. Jefferson's initial draft left God out of the manuscript entirely except for a vague reference to "the laws of nature and of nature's God." Yet, even this phrase makes an implicit reference to the laws of God.

    What Jefferson was content to leave implicit, however, was made more explicit by the other members of the committee. They changed the language to read that all men are "endowed by their Creator" with these rights. Later, the Continental Congress added phrases which further reflected a theistic perspective. For example, they added that they were "appealing to the Supreme Judge of the World for the rectitude of our intentions" and that they were placing "firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence."

    Although the phrasing of the Declaration certainly follows the pattern of John Locke, Jefferson also gave credit to the writer Algernon Sidney, who in turn cites most prominently Aristotle, Plato, Roman republican writers, and the Old Testament.

    Locke explained that the "law of nature" is God's general revelation of law in creation, which God also supernaturally writes on the hearts of men. Locke drew the idea from the New Testament in Romans 1 and 2. In contrast, he spoke of the "law of God" or the "positive law of God" as God's eternal moral law specially revealed and published in Scripture. (1. Gary Amos, Defending the Declaration (Brentwood, TN: Wolgemuth and Hyatt, 1989), 57.)

    This foundation helps explain the tempered nature of the American Revolution. The Declaration of Independence was a bold document, but not a radical one.

    The influence of the Bible on the Constitution was profound but often not appreciated by secular historians and political theorists. 20 years ago, Constitutional scholars and political historians assembled 15,000 writings from the Founding Era (1760-1805). They counted 3154 citations in these writings, and found that the book most frequently cited in that literature was the Bible. The writers from the Foundering Era quoted from the Bible 34 percent of the time. Even more interesting was that about Nearly 80 percent of the political pamphlets published during the 1770s were reprinted sermons. As one political science professor put it: "When reading comprehensively in the political literature of the war years, one cannot but be struck by the extent to which biblical sources used by ministers and traditional Whigs undergirded the justification for the break with Britain, the rationale for continuing the war, and the basic principles of Americans' writing their own constitutions." (Donald S. Lutz, The Origins of American Constitutionalism (Baton Rouge: Louisiana State University Press, 1988, 140. )

    John Quincy Adams played a MAJOR role in the foundation of our country. He was one of the principle negotiators for the winning the War of Independence. He knew the men who founded this country on a professional level and on a personal level. With this intimate knowledge, again, he stated:

    “The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity…I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and the attributes of God.”
    Patrick Henry is best known for his "give me liberty or give me death" speech on March 23, 1775, he became the first governor of Virginia.

    One of his most famous quotes, cannot be verified for sure: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions but on the gospel of Jesus Christ!" It's not found anywhere in his recorded writings or speeches.

    However, here's a verified quote from a letter to his daughter dated August 20, 1796:

    Amongst other strange things said of me, I hear it is said by the deists that I am one of the number; and indeed, that some good people think I am no Christian. This thought gives me much more pain than the appellation of Tory; because I think religion of infinitely higher importance than politics; and I find much cause to reproach myself that I have lived so long, and have given no decided and public proofs of my being a Christian. But, indeed, my dear child, this is a character which I prize far above all this world has, or can boast.
    Thomas Jefferson, the writer of the Declaration of Independence and the third President of the United States wrote to Charles Thomson in 1816:

    I, too, have made a wee-little book from the same materials, which I call the Philosophy of Jesus; it is a paradigma of his doctrines, made by cutting the texts out of the book, and arranging them on the pages of a blank book, in a certain order of time or subject. A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.
    Jefferson was a Deist who respected Christ's teachings, but rejected His divinity, His miracles, and His resurrection.

    Professor M.E. Bradford shows in his book, A Worthy Company, that fifty of the fifty-five men who signed the Constitution were church members who endorsed the Christian faith. (M.E. Bradford, A Worthy Company: Brief Lives of the Framers of the United States Constitution (Marlborough, NH: Plymouth Rock Foundation, 1982).

    Maryland representative Luther Martin said that a handful of delegates to the Constitutional Convention argued for formal recognition of Christianity in the Constitution, insisting that such language was necessary in order to "hold out some distinction between the professors of Christianity and downright infidelity". But even though some of them held this belief personally, they recognized the value of allowing free choice in the matter. Early national leaders understood that separation of church and state would be good for all faiths including Christianity. Jefferson rejoiced that Virginia had passed his religious freedom law, noting that it would ensure religious freedom for "the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, the infidel of every denomination."

    Even the U.S. Supreme Court in 1892, with Justice David Brewer declaring in Holy Trinity v. United States that America is "a Christian nation." It has rarely been cited by other courts, and the "Christian nation" declaration appeared in dicta a legal term meaning writing that reflects a judge's personal opinion, not a mandate of the law. Also, it is unclear exactly what Brewer meant. In a book he wrote in 1905, Brewer pointed out that the United States is Christian in a cultural sense, not a legal one.


    Basically, the United States, in short, was not founded to be an officially Christian nation or to espouse any official religion. Our government is neutral on religious matters, leaving such decisions to individuals. This democratic and pluralistic system has allowed a broad array of religious groups to grow and flourish and guarantees every individual American the right to determine his or her own spiritual path or to reject religion entirely. As a result of this policy, Americans enjoy more religious freedom than any people in world history. We should be proud of this accomplishment and work to preserve the constitutional principle that made it possible.

    But I also think it is important to be aware of the crucial role that religion played in America's revolutionary struggle, of the importance that many Constitution makers attached to it, and of the energy it gave to many American crusades for social justice. It is my thoughts there is a difference between reinforcing Jefferson's wall of separation between church and state (which in the constitutional sense is a very good thing) and seeking to silence any expression of religious values in public life in a society this is highly, traditionally, and historically religious. And again.....If nothing else this shows the wisdom of our founding fathers as they did not try to impose their own personal beliefs on a new nation, but gave their new nation the opportunity to have each citizen decide for themselves.
  16. #356  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    let's begin addressing christian principles in the charter documents:
    FINALLY you started! What took you so long? You could have stated this many, many, many posts ago....
    Declaration of Independence
    1. There is a creator
    There is nothing Christian about this. Everybody except atheists and possibly some Buddhists believe this. Also non-Christian Deists such as Thomas Jefferson believe this.
    2. All men are created
    That's all too obvios, isn't it? Even for Atheists...
    3. All men are equal
    That's not a Christian principle since it refers to all men having the same rights.
    4. Rights of men are derived from their creator
    So? Nothing specifically Christian here either, and certainly not a Christian principle.
    5. Right to life
    Murder is banned in just about evey society. This is a principle of human societies, not of Christianity
    6. All men are inherently free
    Is that so according to the Bible? Where does it say that? Why were most people not free then prior to the Age of Enlightenment, why were there Kings etc., sponsored by churches etc.? Sorry, but freedom is not a Christian principle...
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  17. #357  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Clulup in another thread : This is a key point that we agree on, is that most of them either were Christians, held Christian values, or even belonged to specific and varying denominations. When you are conducting anything in your life with a strong spiritual life, it has a bearing and influence on everything else you do in your life. I believe that anyone with a strong Christian belief would agree that it is hard to go against your belief system just because you are at work, on vacation, or starting a new gov. John Quincy Adams stated on June 28, 1813:...
    As you mentioned yourself, I have never said that the US were not founded by people who were, in their majority, Christian, even though quite a high number were not Christian but e.g. Deists who do not believe Jesus was the son of god etc..

    So yes, it is a fact that the founders had a Christian background and lived in a society dominated by Christian values. But that doesn't change the main point of the discussion whether Christian principles played a role in the founding of the US.

    A principle is "a comprehensive and fundamental law, doctrine, or assumption". The comprehensive and fundamental laws, doctrines, or assumptions of a democracy are e.g. one person one vote, everybody has the same rights regardless of who his parents were, freedom of speech, freedom of press, etc.

    NONE of these principles are in any way emphasized in the bible. Did Jesus ever state that there should be no slaves, or no kings ruling over their population, that people should live in a democracy, all have the same political rights, freedom of speech etc.? Not to my knowledge... Instead, he told the people to believe in him being the Messiah, that he would come back and save the world, that people should love their neighbours and their enemies, turn the other cheek, believe in god, etc. NONE of his principle teachings are reflected in the declaration of independence and the constitution.

    Of course you can find quotes from the Old Testament in letters or refernces to the New Testament in speeches, but still, there is no overlap between the basic teachings of Jesus/the Bible and the basic principles found in the constitution. Therefore it is not true that the US (or other Western democracies) are based on Christian principles.

    I have asked everybody who disagrees for examples of the contrary, but it does not seem that anybody can find such examples, so it seems they don't exist.
    Last edited by clulup; 09/23/2005 at 04:36 AM.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  18. #358  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    FINALLY you started! What took you so long? You could have stated this many, many, many posts ago....
    It seems from your responses that I started too soon.

    So, let's establish some more common ground:

    I offer that:

    A principle that is shared by multipe groups is equally a principle of each as is a principle of all of them, but certainly could not be construed as a principle of none of them.

    Do you agree?
  19. #359  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    It seems from your responses that I started too soon.

    So, let's establish some more common ground:

    I offer that:

    A principle that is shared by multipe groups is equally a principle of each as is a principle of all of them, but certainly could not be construed as a principle of none of them.

    Do you agree?
    Stating things in a simple, concise and clear way is a virtue, just in case...

    However, I guess I agree. But again, you will not find what you are looking for by going into that direction.

    Just a few examples: Most Christians will agree that the principle of not smoking while handling gas is a good principle. The same holds true e.g. for not peeing into the direction of the wind, not using hairdryers in the bathtub, and lots of other things. But the fact that most Christians agree with those principles doesn't make them Christian principles. Or would you say not using hairdryers while sitting in the bathtub is a Christian principle?

    Christian principles are principles advocated by the Bible, not just principles most Christians agree with for whatever reason.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  20. #360  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    ...However, I guess I agree. But again, you will not find what you are looking for by going into that direction.
    <.....>
    Christian principles are principles advocated by the Bible, not just principles most Christians agree with for whatever reason.
    In light of our shared understanding and this definition, which of the following do you find are not advocated by the Bible?

    1. There is a creator
    2. All men are created
    3. All men are equal
    4. Rights of men are derived from their creator
    5. Right to life
    6. All men are inherently free

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