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  1. naivete's Avatar
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    #221  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    I would try to educate all the kids so they know smoking is stupid and dangerous for you and others health.
    I realize it's a bad example. I can't believe I just drew a symbolism between god and cigarettes. Please forgive me.

    It is certainly good to educate the kids about the danger of smoking, but education alone doesn't teach them to stand up and say NO.

    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    ..the difference between the pledge and smoking peer pressure is that is pledge is encouraged by the school/state while smoking hopefully isnt.. big difference..
    The difference is also because smoking is dangerous and saying "under god" isn't.
  2. #222  
    Quote Originally Posted by naivete
    I realize it's a bad example. I can't believe I just drew a symbolism between god and cigarettes. Please forgive me.
    Contact Barye. He will prescribe appropriate penance.
  3. #223  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    Then what DOES it mean??
    Please enlighten this mindless liberal..

    The belief in a God, Buddha, Allah, is a belief, you can believe in a God without practicing a form religion.

    In other words a person can be spiritual without being religious.
  4. #224  
    Quote Originally Posted by dlbrummels
    The belief in a God, Buddha, Allah, is a belief, you can believe in a God without practicing a form religion.

    In other words a person can be spiritual without being religious.
    spiritual/religious is semantic IMHO..

    the pledge simply implies there is a god and that that god rules the US hence that god rules the citicens.. and you swear allegiance to it.

    To 'force' kids to do this is respectless towards those who are athists and do not believe in a god figure and is wrong since you mix up church and state..
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  5. naivete's Avatar
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    #225  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Contact Barye. He will prescribe appropriate penance.
    Or I should become a Rastafarian
    Last edited by naivete; 09/16/2005 at 12:19 PM.
  6. #226  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    While I support your premise, I'm intrigued with your rationale. If you don't mind, I'd like to explore this tangent:

    What is the difference between "god" and "creator"?
    To me there is no difference, i dont believe in either. Sorry for the late reply, went home early yesterday.

    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Legalization of marijuana is probably more an economic issue, namely how to tax its use.
    There are many aspects of it that make legalization impractical even if they are hypocritical.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    It was a blanket statement on purpose, because 1) That's exactly how this country was founded. People weren't happy with how they were being treated so the packed up and moved and found a new life for themselves and 2) In this country, you still have the right to do that. If you're not happy, you don't have to put up with it. You can pack up and leave. Not everyone enjoys that freedom.
    packing up and leaving isnt what this country was founded on, the US was founded by people who didnt want to put up with the tyranny of an oppressive government. As an American I dont think running away at the first sign of a law I dont like is the best idea. I would much rather stay and fight against what I see as injustice, thats why I live in a state with the death penalty, and also why I didnt more to Canada when Bush was elected again.

    What I'm tired of is the fact that 98% of this country has to put up with the sensitivities of 2% of the country, instead of the other way around.
    Sorry, but thats the way this country works. It always has and always will. Majority rule only applies in elections, in terms of protecting the liberties of the citizens its all about being all inclusive. If anyone's rights are infringed on, then everyones can be.
    iPhone in the Washington DC area.
  7. #227  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    spiritual/religious is semantic IMHO..

    the pledge simply implies there is a god and that that god rules the US hence that god rules the citicens.. and you swear allegiance to it.

    To 'force' kids to do this is respectless towards those who are athists and do not believe in a god figure and is wrong since you mix up church and state..
    Incorrect, religion is organized. A person that believes in God and lives by his commandments, who doesn't go to an organized place of worship and doesn't practice a brand of religion, is spirtual.

    God doesn't rule the US, belief in a creator is your option, we revolted from England for religious freedom, remember ?

    Kids are not forced to say "Under God" is is a choice, like the choice we made to leave England.
  8. naivete's Avatar
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    #228  
    Sorry Antelope. The Rastafarian reference has been in my mind all day since yesterday, so I let it out in a flaming post. I decided to cool the flame after realizing what I did. Peace.
  9. #229  
    Quote Originally Posted by naivete
    Sorry Antelope. The Rastafarian reference has been in my mind all day since yesterday, so I let it out in a flaming post. I decided to cool the flame after realizing what I did. Peace.
    Hahah, no worries, im not even sure why i brought it up in the first place. Im sure I had some point to make that Ive totally forgotten at this point
    iPhone in the Washington DC area.
  10. #230  
    Quote Originally Posted by dlbrummels
    Incorrect, religion is organized. A person that believes in God and lives by his commandments, who doesn't go to an organized place of worship and doesn't practice a brand of religion, is spirtual..
    Sorry but I seem to be missing your point, what are you trying to say with that?

    Quote Originally Posted by dlbrummels
    God doesn't rule the US, belief in a creator is your option, we revolted from England for religious freedom, remember ?.
    if you say 'under god' it means you serve god or are physically under him, but since god is omnipresent that makes no sense so I deduct that it must mean you serve god..
    Or am I thinking too literally? please explain..

    Quote Originally Posted by dlbrummels
    Kids are not forced to say "Under God" is is a choice, like the choice we made to leave England.
    This is where we disagree, buy enforcing the pledge the gov is puting peer pressure on kids which IMHO is forcing it..
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  11. #231  
    Quote Originally Posted by dlbrummels
    Kids are not forced to say "Under God" is is a choice, like the choice we made to leave England.
    Again, I dont feel that it matters if anyone is forced to say anything. The simple fact that the government endorses a Pledge that suggests the existance of a god is unacceptable. Basically, the government is endorsing the view that a god exists, which is in direct conflict with my religious beliefs.
    iPhone in the Washington DC area.
  12. #232  
    Quote Originally Posted by AnteL0pe
    ...If anyone's rights are infringed on, then everyones can be.
    Indeed.

    I think what is ultimately at issue here is what are those rights?
    In other words, the U.S. citizenry needs to ask its collective self these core belief questions:
    1. To what are we entitled?
    2. On what basis are we entitled to it?

    I think those questions were answered satisfactorily at the inception of the nation's existence as a separate and equal power on the Earth. Others, seemingly, are dissatisfied with those answers.
  13. #233  
    Quote Originally Posted by dlbrummels
    Incorrect, religion is organized. A person that believes in God and lives by his commandments, who doesn't go to an organized place of worship and doesn't practice a brand of religion, is spirtual.

    God doesn't rule the US, belief in a creator is your option, we revolted from England for religious freedom, remember ?

    Kids are not forced to say "Under God" is is a choice, like the choice we made to leave England.

    It is gov't endorsement of religion.
  14. #234  
    Quote Originally Posted by AnteL0pe
    Again, I dont feel that it matters if anyone is forced to say anything. The simple fact that the government endorses a Pledge that suggests the existance of a god is unacceptable. Basically, the government is endorsing the view that a god exists, which is in direct conflict with my religious beliefs.
    and it doesn't matter, what matters is it the will of the majority.

    Belief in God, or the word God is not religion.
  15. #235  
    Quote Originally Posted by AnteL0pe
    Again, I dont feel that it matters if anyone is forced to say anything. The simple fact that the government endorses a Pledge that suggests the existance of a god is unacceptable. Basically, the government is endorsing the view that a god exists, which is in direct conflict with my religious beliefs.
    The only problem you face is that the pledge merely relates what the Declaration of Independence clearly states. The view that god exists is central to the argument that we had, and do have, a right to exist as a separate power, equal to Great Brittain. The whole case is that through our Creator we have inalienable rights......endowed by the Creator.

    I understand that your religious beliefs conflict with that notion. Mine happen to coincide.

    But, if you want to change it, you have to work at the foundation. The Pledge of Allegiance is but fruit that has grown from the roots of this country's founding.

    And this is where the matter of the "majority" and "minority" is at issue.

    To remove reference to "god/creator" from the public square, is to dislodge one of the pillars of our democratic republic. So, now you are requiring the nation to acquiesce to your beliefs, in direct contradiction to its foundational (majority, for now) principles.

    I am NOT saying that because it was at our founding, it must always be at our founding. Rather, I am saying if you don't want the "government endorsing the view that god exists" then you need to address more than the POA. That same Declaration of Independence not only endorses the view that there is a god/creator, it actually states that the purpose of government is to secure (protect and preserve) the rights that said creator endowed to us.

    Now, I applaud your effort to sway the nation, because that same Declaration also says that the other factor that gives government legitimacy is the consent of the governed.

    Of course, it is quite the conundrum. Because if you don't believe there is a creator, you can't really rely on the tenets of the Declaration of Independence as a basis to lodge a complaint.
  16. cardio's Avatar
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    #236  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    well if they 'force' kids to use this sentense I'd say it sure looks like it could imply that..
    And, since it is not forced, there are no penalities if a child does not recite parts of the pledge or any part of it do you then also agree that the implication is not there?
  17. #237  
    Quote Originally Posted by AnteL0pe
    Again, I dont feel that it matters if anyone is forced to say anything. The simple fact that the government endorses a Pledge that suggests the existance of a god is unacceptable. Basically, the government is endorsing the view that a god exists, which is in direct conflict with my religious beliefs.
    The goverment is the people, and the majority believe in a creator, and don't have a problem with saying it or not.
  18. #238  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    It is gov't endorsement of religion.
    Because if they did we Wiccans would rule
  19. cardio's Avatar
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    #239  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    Thank you for interpreting what I want to say.. too bad you missed my point..

    outlaw peer pressure makes just as much sense as to outlaw gravity.
    My point is that a school which is a gov. run institution should not 'force' kids to make religious statements. seperation of church and state remember?
    You are twisting my argument.. one would almost think you were a troll... but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt... once..
    You are almost right. Schools can not force any religion on a child. They can not make them say Allah is god, there is no god, Jesus is God, etc. The statment in the POA is not in any way supporting a religion. And you forgot that seperation of church and state thing is not in our constitution.
  20. #240  
    Quote Originally Posted by dlbrummels
    and it doesn't matter, what matters is it the will of the majority.
    That isnt exactly true. As I stated earlier:

    Sorry, but thats the way this country works. It always has and always will. Majority rule only applies in elections, in terms of protecting the liberties of the citizens its all about being all inclusive. If anyone's rights are infringed on, then everyones can be.
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    The only problem you face is that the pledge merely relates what the Declaration of Independence clearly states. The view that god exists is central to the argument that we had, and do have, a right to exist as a separate power, equal to Great Brittain. The whole case is that through our Creator we have inalienable rights......endowed by the Creator.
    This can be interpreted though. Its basically talking about human rights, which dont require the existence of a god.

    But, if you want to change it, you have to work at the foundation. The Pledge of Allegiance is but fruit that has grown from the roots of this country's founding.
    Well since the Pledge didnt originally include any reference to god I dont see it that way, but your point is well taken. The most powerful documents in the US all reference god in one way or another, but there is also an implied, and stated separation of church and state. No it is not stated in the constitution, or bill of rights, but anyone who believes that our founding fathers did not want a separation of these two doesnt really understand the revolution. I believe that in modern times, where people have modern belief structures there has to be the ability for us as Americans to realize that just because there is a mention of god in these documents does not require that everyone believe in him, nor does it require that we allow our government to support a religious belief that is offensive to its citizens.

    To remove reference to "god/creator" from the public square, is to dislodge one of the pillars of our democratic republic. So, now you are requiring the nation to acquiesce to your beliefs, in direct contradiction to its foundational (majority, for now) principles.
    Ok here you lost me. Exactly how is the removal of god from the Pledge and other government endorsed speeches and documents removing anything from democracy? I am also not implying that people all suddenly start believing what I believe about religion (wouldnt make much sense because im not sure where i stand yet), im just saying that the government should be neutral on the subject. And the only way to do that is to remove god from statements or documents that the government is promoting/sanctioning/etc. Doing that doesnt imply a belief that god doesnt exist does it?

    I am NOT saying that because it was at our founding, it must always be at our founding. Rather, I am saying if you don't want the "government endorsing the view that god exists" then you need to address more than the POA. That same Declaration of Independence not only endorses the view that there is a god/creator, it actually states that the purpose of government is to secure (protect and preserve) the rights that said creator endowed to us.
    Again, were it written today it would be speaking about Human Rights, thats what theyre getting at there. Yes, they were all big believers in god, they were religious people. They believed we had rights that were given to all people (humans). The intent here seems clear to me, and i support it, there are human rights, and no one can infringe on those.

    Of course, it is quite the conundrum. Because if you don't believe there is a creator, you can't really rely on the tenets of the Declaration of Independence as a basis to lodge a complaint.
    I'll have to just flat out disagree with you on this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by dlbrummels
    The goverment is the people, and the majority believe in a creator, and don't have a problem with saying it or not.
    Again, majority doesnt matter here. If the majority of people in the US decided that anyone with black skin should be a slave would that be right?
    iPhone in the Washington DC area.

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