Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 27 of 27
  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    It is wise to be skeptical, provided the skepticism is a means to an end rather than an end itself. There are those who are raise questions for the sake of questioning rather than for the sake of learning. They enjoy stirring up the pot, but never seem to cook anything.

    With diligent inquiry, I believe you would find that the historic christian faith (not necessarily the religious practices and traditions of those called "christians") is most accurate in terms of characterizing the condition of Man and Man's surroundings, and is most thorough in providing a solution that is life-affirming in both a temporal and eternal manner.

    The God of the Bible, is not a catch-all for the unexplainable, but rather the very personal author and finisher of both the explainable and the unexplainable, and the as yet unattainable.

    The historic christian faith is an intellectual one. Was Rhenquist, an intellectual, a believer? I don't know. But that reference makes my post on topic
    I like what you have said but then how does it apply (or support) the issue of people, when questioned about their faith, take it as a personal attack and not an opportunity to explore it and reaffirm their belief by 'proving' it in some debatable format?

    It seems in my personal dealings with people that they ('Christians') are usually unwilling to debate the issue of God (or Christianity) for fear that it might unravel whatever belief that they have.
    Palm III-->Palm IIIxe-->Palm 505-->Samsung i300-->Treo 600-->PPC 6600-->Treo 650-->Treo 700wx-->BB Pearl--> BB Curve

  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I like what you have said but then how does it apply (or support) the issue of people, when questioned about their faith, take it as a personal attack and not an opportunity to explore it and reaffirm their belief by 'proving' it in some debatable format?

    It seems in my personal dealings with people that they ('Christians') are usually unwilling to debate the issue of God (or Christianity) for fear that it might unravel whatever belief that they have.
    My obersvation (code word for opinion) is that many "believers" strongly believe what they have been told/taught, rather than what they have concluded based on their own investigation. As a result, questions can be very offensive to them because the questions reveal gaps in their understanding.

    Worse yet, many have faith in their faith, as in "I believe it, therefore it is true." So if they can not answer a question, it shakes them to their very core.

    In fact, people frequently are turned away from their "faith" after having encountered other people who are trained to exploit such ignorance. The approach is:
    1. Find a text which, when viewed out of context seems contradictary to commonly held belief
    2. Present the supposed contadiction as a lie
    3. Postulate: if they "lied" to you about x, then how can you be sure they haven't lied about y and z as well?

    Likewise, the internal response goes as follows:
    1. I don't have an answer for that
    2. What they're saying seems to make sense
    3. if I'm wrong about x, how can I be sure I'm right about y and z.

    And, so said "believers" head off into a new religion with the same premise -- believing only what others have told/taught them.

    This whole phenomena is why I make a point to emphasize the biblical concept of faith (confidence in that which is guaranteed but not yet delivered) rather than the common definition (belief in the unknown).

    When you just believe what someone else has told you, that belief will soon be reshaped by what someone else tells you. When you believe what you have investigated, that belief will only be changed when you see compelling evidence either to the contrary or to greater clarity.

    Rest assured, the phenomena is not limited to christians. However, in these united states, it seems that other belief systems have more rigorous indoctrination (not a bad thing) including training as to how to respond to common questions and tactics of others.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    My obersvation (code word for opinion) is that many "believers" strongly believe what they have been told/taught, rather than what they have concluded based on their own investigation. As a result, questions can be very offensive to them because the questions reveal gaps in their understanding.

    Worse yet, many have faith in their faith, as in "I believe it, therefore it is true." So if they can not answer a question, it shakes them to their very core.

    In fact, people frequently are turned away from their "faith" after having encountered other people who are trained to exploit such ignorance. The approach is:
    1. Find a text which, when viewed out of context seems contradictary to commonly held belief
    2. Present the supposed contadiction as a lie
    3. Postulate: if they "lied" to you about x, then how can you be sure they haven't lied about y and z as well?

    Likewise, the internal response goes as follows:
    1. I don't have an answer for that
    2. What they're saying seems to make sense
    3. if I'm wrong about x, how can I be sure I'm right about y and z.

    And, so said "believers" head off into a new religion with the same premise -- believing only what others have told/taught them.

    This whole phenomena is why I make a point to emphasize the biblical concept of faith (confidence in that which is guaranteed but not yet delivered) rather than the common definition (belief in the unknown).

    When you just believe what someone else has told you, that belief will soon be reshaped by what someone else tells you. When you believe what you have investigated, that belief will only be changed when you see compelling evidence either to the contrary or to greater clarity.

    Rest assured, the phenomena is not limited to christians. However, in these united states, it seems that other belief systems have more rigorous indoctrination (not a bad thing) including training as to how to respond to common questions and tactics of others.
    Well put.

    It reflects my own journey where I was brought up to "believe", wandered and investigated, and then proved it for myself.

    I, too, have a REAL problem with Sunday-only, Paper-tiger Christians. I can't be shaken because my faith doesn't come from what I was taught/told to believe, it is in what I've proven to WORK.

    I confess that I used to take pleasure in shaking up the weak-faithed.
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  4. #24  
    I confess that I nearly abandoned "christianity" joined a radical organization in the days of my told/taught faith.
  5. #25  
    I grew up in a strong Christian home. And no matter what, we each have to find out for ourselves what is true. That means wanting to find out and searching to learn. No matter what it is, we can only depend on what someone else thinks or says for so long. I too have had a time of wandering as an young adult.

    What is interesting is that this holds true with just about every aspect of my belief system in my life, be it political, religious, hobbies, etc....
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    ...What is interesting is that this holds true with just about every aspect of my belief system in my life, be it political, religious, hobbies, etc....
    Same here. The religious aspect happens to be the most developed. But, even in other areas, I am finding it so liberating to discover/determine who I am and live accordingly, rather than living up to other peoples' expectations.

    It is amazing to look at how much of how I have been living has been the result of others' expectations rather than my own aspirations.

    I must admit, first breaking out of that mode was a bit frightening. In many respects I'm still feeling my way. But, I am enjoying the journey much more now.

    When I reach Rhenquist's state (obligatory on topic reference ), I want to have expended all my potential.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Same here. The religious aspect happens to be the most developed. But, even in other areas, I am finding it so liberating to discover/determine who I am and live accordingly, rather than living up to other peoples' expectations.

    It is amazing to look at how much of how I have been living has been the result of others' expectations rather than my own aspirations.

    I must admit, first breaking out of that mode was a bit frightening. In many respects I'm still feeling my way. But, I am enjoying the journey much more now.

    When I reach Rhenquist's state (obligatory on topic reference ), I want to have expended all my potential.
    Great point (staying on topic)! We will ALL be lying down on the job like him someday. If I'm fortunate enough to see it coming, I want to be able to smile knowing that I've done the right things and I KNOW where I'm about to go.

    Peace of mind is a great state to lay in.
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions