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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by dutchtrumpet
    Sorry...I didn't mean to answer so shortly.

    The difference I believe is our estimate of where the root exists. I believe Governent policies have created a sense of dependency for the black community on the government. The governmment through welfare has in a sense created it's own religion, welfare is charity imposed by the state. The state will provide, the role of the father becomes less significant for daily survival. there is avicious cycle of creating this dependency and looking to the government as to a GOD for all answers. Any system created by man will be, as man is, flawed. When a society looks for all answers from a state institution and then there is a tragedy that cannot be solved immediately, the state is blamed. The Father has failed. I know it will be clear that there were lapses in judgement along the way. That is the nature of humanity. We will build stronger.

    As to the prisons. They are horrible. I do believe, however that people in poverty are conditioned to believe the only solution to a problem will be external, rather than looking for personal responsibilty.

    I know I'm rambling and probably not making much sense.

    take care
    ALthough I tend to agree with you Dutch...
    It does seem to be a conundrum.

    Although welfare does create a dependancy for some... I do think that it is legitimate in some cases. If a hard working person falls upon bad times it would be criminal if the government was not willing to help, regardless of race. The problem becomes the people who take advantage of the "help" and cease to help themselves. I have always thought that maybe what the governmnet should do is offer free childcare instead of food stamps. That would make it so that everyone would have the chance to pursue gainful employment.
    Hmmmm.....
    Perhaps the emphasis should be placed on teaching Americans to fish... rather than just tossing them food and setting a dangerous precedent.

    And in your last comment... I believe that "conditioned" is the operative word. That conditioning comes from many different sources....
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by Longstrider
    ALthough I tend to agree with you Dutch...
    It does seem to be a conundrum.

    Although welfare does create a dependancy for some... I do think that it is legitimate in some cases. If a hard working person falls upon bad times it would be criminal if the government was not willing to help, regardless of race. The problem becomes the people who take advantage of the "help" and cease to help themselves. I have always thought that maybe what the governmnet should do is offer free childcare instead of food stamps. That would make it so that everyone would have the chance to pursue gainful employment.
    Hmmmm.....
    Perhaps the emphasis should be placed on teaching Americans to fish... rather than just tossing them food and setting a dangerous precedent.

    And in your last comment... I believe that "conditioned" is the operative word. That conditioning comes from many different sources....
    I agree with you here. I believe there are those in power that see the perpetual dependence of the poor on the gov't as a source of power.
  3. NRG
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    #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by Longstrider
    Although welfare does create a dependancy for some... I do think that it is legitimate in some cases. If a hard working person falls upon bad times it would be criminal if the government was not willing to help, regardless of race. The problem becomes the people who take advantage of the "help" and cease to help themselves. I have always thought that maybe what the governmnet should do is offer free childcare instead of food stamps. That would make it so that everyone would have the chance to pursue gainful employment.
    Hmmmm.....
    Perhaps the emphasis should be placed on teaching Americans to fish... rather than just tossing them food and setting a dangerous precedent.

    And in your last comment... I believe that "conditioned" is the operative word. That conditioning comes from many different sources....
    You are NO longer allowed to be on welfare for more than 5 years per lifetime. So getting stuck on welfare just is not going to happen these days.

    Source: Wikipedia.org

    BTW I agree with almost all of your points.
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by dutchtrumpet
    I agree with you here. I believe there are those in power that see the perpetual dependence of the poor on the gov't as a source of power.
    Bingo!
    You win a set of orthopedic inserts for your hard soled shoes...
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by Franko515
    i see the lack of education isnt just in the black community

    There is always another excuse, now it is about lack of education.That is why ,people like you get offended by Bill Cosby, when he tells you the truth.
    Stop blaming the world for your shortcomings !!
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtreosexual
    There is always another excuse, now it is about lack of education.That is why ,people like you get offended by Bill Cosby, when he tells you the truth.
    Stop blaming the world for your shortcomings !!
    people like me , sir you dont even know me, nor do you know my views of Cosby.

    My shortcomings , again sir, you dont know me or my shortcomings. i am a very productive citizen, and have achieved much success, but thats a different matter. you can voice your opinion freely and have the right to, but i do take offense to personal attacks. i gave my opinion and so did you, and thats fine. but there is no need for you to attack me personally sir.
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  7. #47  
    I agree with you here. I believe there are those in power that see the perpetual dependence of the poor on the gov't as a source of power
    Bingo, dutch. and thats what its all about power.

    You are NO longer allowed to be on welfare for more than 5 years per lifetime. So getting stuck on welfare just is not going to happen these days.
    Yes this is true, and in chicago at least there arent food stamps anymore, only link cards (to try and stop the misuse of funds)

    I believe Governent policies have created a sense of dependency for the black community on the government. The governmment through welfare has in a sense created it's own religion, welfare is charity imposed by the state.

    welfare is not a black thing, its a poverty thing. hell, there are more whites getting public assistance than blacks.
    Last edited by Franko515; 09/03/2005 at 09:06 PM.
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  8. #48  
    yes, but had the huricane been in Beverly Hills. (Despite them being equipt to deal with the situation or not) It would have been handled the day after the event.
    KW did not have to say what he said. But, the events of this past week, really do send the message out to a group of people who already feel uncared about as a whole, that the country they live in. Has STILL not accepted them.

    Everyone that is out there making excuses for, why this happened or why that happed. Take this with you. You go and tell all the minorities in NO that they are cared about. You go and justify to all the minorities why it took so long.

    I don't think I could even find the words.
  9. vw2002's Avatar
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    #49  
    ". But if you do not believe that the politics of this country can make it extremely more difficult and sometimes damn near impossible for some people to "succeed", then you are ignorant in the true sense of the word. For some, not being shot in their own neighborhood from day to day is considered a success."

    ok, I know people are going to rip into me by saying this, but I simply have to ask...

    why are blacks the majority in prisons nationwide? why do they cry the blues louder than any other race here in america? why do they make up the largest numbers of drug users, rapists, gang-oriented behavior and the like? why are they first on the list to have to be taken care of by welfare before any other race?

    the chinese, came here and were used as slaves as well - sure not to the extent that blacks were in the south, but in the west they were slaves just the same.

    the chinese were slaves in their earliest beginnings here in america yet they seem to have found a way to overcome such a past, take root here and succeed. do we hear them crying the blues today in america? absolutely not.

    chinese, mexicans, indians, japanese - while all these people came here initially with the same meager resources as the blacks, why is it that these people have quietly succeeded without having to resort to pulling out the race card as african americans do when they encounter tough times?

    I really want to know. honestly, in light of all this sharpton/jackson garbage.

    I'm simply commenting on an observation I see repeated over and over again here.
    I know we had an EXTREME race problem up until the sixties and seventies, and for those hardships they have EVERY reason to DEMAND their civil liberties be protected, but we are no longer in such times now.

    we have all moved on from that stage in american history into a time where the civil liberties of ALL are upheld with upmost reverence - as in no other period in our nation's history.

    so what is the problem here?
    I gotta have more cowbell
  10. #50  
    "They" aren't minorities...they are the majority

    your ignorance is amazing. do you know any history. weather wins.

    that is the way it is.
  11. vw2002's Avatar
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    #51  
    "Everyone that is out there making excuses for, why this happened or why that happed. Take this with you. You go and tell all the minorities in NO that they are cared about. You go and justify to all the minorities why it took so long.

    I don't think I could even find the words."


    I fault the mayors and the governors for not doing their jobs in mobilizing public buses to these people whom they knew were in dire straits - without tvs, phones, transportation, money, etc.

    these mayors should have responded to the category 5 storm warnings by ordering their school buses to pick up all of these people in harms way, who didn't have the means to go themselves, and take them to safety.

    end of story.

    that would have finished this unnecessary story, quite frankly.
    sure fema's response to saving people in katrina's aftermath has without a doubt been shockingly slower than expected for the US, but I believe the failure was largely due to a failure by these states' mayors and governors to appropriately handle the threatening storm.

    if you really want to hurl blame at someone, I think we should start right there - the mayors and governors of louisiana and mississippi.

    all those hundreds of shiny yellow school buses shown flooded out in the parking lots would certainly have proven much more useful moving those who couldn't move or didn't understand the situation out of the area.

    would have been a much more intelligent preemptive action, don't you think?
    I gotta have more cowbell
  12. vw2002's Avatar
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    #52  
    your ignorance is amazing. do you know any history. weather wins

    my ignorance is amazing. I expected such a response.

    "weather wins"

    i wasn't referring so much to the katrina situation, but in general, dutch. why we find, out of all races in america, that african-americans seem to be experiencing the greatest difficulties with poverty, crime. racism. etc.

    now if you'd just prefer to call me ignorant rather than answer, I guess we'll just have to go with that, won't we?

    either way, things are what they are
    I gotta have more cowbell
  13. #53  
    smileyboy: I tend to agree with much of what you posted.

    I have read some of the posts here and I don't want individuals to think that I am making excuses for others. I do personally believe that the only thing that we can control on this earth is our reaction to certain events.

    vw: you raise some good questions. I think it's a combination of factors. For instance...you said:

    why are blacks the majority in prisons nationwide? ---In sociology and criminology, the question then becomes "Are we actually targetting them first". If you look at most prison populations, the number one infraction that landed them there is *usually* drugs. Drugs seem to be predominantly used in the lower socioeconomic classes and arguably African Americans tend to represent more of those people based on %.


    why do they cry the blues louder than any other race here in america? --Maybe because they seem (at least as a racial group) to face the stiffest amount of discrimination. If that is the case, then I think it logically flows that they would be complaining the most.

    why do they make up the largest numbers of drug users, rapists, gang-oriented behavior and the like?--Drug users (probably), rapists (I don't know...not sure unless you have some more factual info)...gang oriented (maybe because there is not a lot of economic hope in the lower socio-economic classes. The examples they see are someone who works hard for less than a living wage or the person who sells drugs on the corner doing quite well.)

    why are they first on the list to have to be taken care of by welfare before any other race? --Arguably they are probably the largest minority group and usually welfare recipients are on the lower end of the socio-economic scale. It then follows that they would be drawing the most out of the welfare system. That example seems to play out when you take group Pacific Islanders. They are a smaller minority of folks so they are probably represented by a small percentage of people on welfare compared to other groups.)
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  14. vw2002's Avatar
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    #54  
    thankyou, t2gungho. good points.

    they do seem to be more likely than others to be found at the lower end of the socio-economic end.

    that this situation exists because they still suffer the stiffest discrimination compared to other groups is possible, and that apparently this state of affairs forces them into poverty, discourages them from trying to get out of poverty to challenge themselves and succeed is possible I guess.
    but all people face challenges of some sort or another, yet all peoples do not choose the path involving drugs despite growing up poor and seeing drug dealers doing well for themselves. so many pursue legitimate careers and vocations.

    and many african-americans are doing just that - becoming doctors, lawyers, professors, judges, etc and establish themselves quite well to become very respected citizens, despite this supposed stiff discrimination - there is no questioning that. but there is still just a large majority at the same time that just doesnt, and it makes you wonder. if some can do it, why doesn't that give incentive to more people to choose that route vs perpetuating the same old spiral down generation after generation?

    I know the point you are making regarding working hard for a meager living vs selling drugs and living "comfortably". there is a lot of truth in this.

    but america is the best place for them to make successes of themselves. if they can't make it here, where else are they going to make it?

    are they having the same degree of difficulty with poverty and crime in england, spain, or any other countries?
    I gotta have more cowbell
  15. #55  
    There in lies the problem .
    I know the point you are making regarding working hard for a meager living vs selling drugs and living "comfortably". there is a lot of truth in this.

    It is the path they themselves choose. Other minorties such as hispanics , do have these problems to some extent. They do not blame the rest of the world for this .
  16. #56  
    VW2002

    From what you ask there can only be one of two answers.
    Either you think that:

    1. the African American race are inherently idiots and ignorant and thus predisposed to using, and selling drugs, violence, and would be poor under any circumstances, or

    2. There have been some extenuating circumstances and situations that have led to this type of behavior.

    Well, lets dismiss #1. By your own comments there are many blacks who are doing well for themselves. Doctors, lawyers, and the such as you put it. So apparantly African americans actually do have and can use their brains. They are not intrinsically "idiots" as it would seem you believe.

    Instead of going into a long historical lesson, and I must say it is a pity that black history isnt even a subject of study in the United States School system, and is generally and elective in college, I will instead propose to you an experiment...

    Get a child. A child that is under the age of 5. It will be much more effective if you use your own child. Then start telling that child every day that they are worthless and will never amount to anything. As a matter of fact, dont ever say anything positive to the child. Along with that, let the child make its own decision and dont have much involvement in its life other than to bombard it with negative views and images of itself. Feed the child just enough to keep it alive, speak extremely high of other children when your child is in earshot.
    Then just sit back and watch that childs behavior. Please take careful notes and document everthing. Then when that child makes a bad decsion, tell it see... i told you you were a worthless *****. Then watch the prophecy be fulfilled..

    Seems extreme to you doesnt it...
    Well... its not so extreme.

    The psyche is more important than any physical attribute we are blessed with. It is the reason why Sports psychology, Business psycholigy, and child pyschology, is an industry that is booming through the roof. Damage the Psyche and and the person is doomed in almost every circumstance. It is small successes that began to build a persons confidence in who they are. Unfortunately there are so many individuals in this country, mainly the poor, who are born into defeated situations and the cycle is then perpetuated.

    So a decision does need to be made. Those who understand what is happening in the poor communities should not turn a blind eye but instead try to give back. When i was growing up there were Police boys clubs everywhere that were free and really worked to help young poor kids start to feel successful and give them a place to go. Places like that are gone today... There are not many places or people where poor kids can turn to and get positive feedback.

    That would cause a problem for anyone... no matter what race you are...

    Many of the ignorant will remain so, so it is futile to blame it on anyone else and expect to receive help from people who do not and never will understand the plight. It is up to the parents, the community, and those who are not ignorant of the matter to find a way to help. What is the answer? I do not think it is just one, but the bottom line is that these poor kids have got to have places where they can get some positive feedback about who they are. I challenge those in the know to give back just a little...
    Last edited by Longstrider; 09/04/2005 at 11:42 AM.
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by smileyboy
    yes, but had the huricane been in Beverly Hills. (Despite them being equipt to deal with the situation or not) It would have been handled the day after the event.
    snip
    Everyone that is out there making excuses for, why this happened or why that happed. Take this with you. You go and tell all the minorities in NO that they are cared about. You go and justify to all the minorities why it took so long.

    I don't think I could even find the words.
    I'd like you to show the proof of your first statement. That is your opinion nothing more. You cannot prove it.


    As to the second part, I guess you must be missing the outpouring of assistance that is occuring in EVERY community in the country. Nope, no one cares about the minorities in NO. Lets just let them all die the we'll have fewer of them to deal with. Will you please pull your head out of your arse and acknowledge that your wrong.

    The reason things didnt move faster has nothing to do with race. NO has not been hit by a storm like this in our history. Humans are arrogant. We didnt think it could happen so we weren't prepared for it. Next time however there is a cat 5 in NO, very few people will even get wet. Why because wehen we fix this it will be done with the recent disaster fresh in mind. and we wont want it to happen again.

    Race only matters if people point it out and use it as an excuse.
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  18. #58  
    and it would sure be nice if some of you could learn to use the damn "quote" button.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
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    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  19. #59  
    Woof at Today 11:52 AM

    and it would sure be nice if some of you could learn to use the damn "quote" button.

    Woof, please point out on the mobile version of TC where the quote button is?
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  20. #60  
    Woof: "As to the second part, I guess you must be missing the outpouring of assistance that is occuring in EVERY community in the country. Nope, no one cares about the minorities in NO. Lets just let them all die the we'll have fewer of them to deal with. Will you please pull your head out of your arse and acknowledge that your wrong."

    This out pouring of support is indeed wonderful. But it is after the fact and not something that the govt. is doing. Remember...it took 6 days for the most powerful country in the world to get those people evacuated. I personally don't see why we should not question how and why the decisions were made thus far by the fed. govt.

    "The reason things didnt move faster has nothing to do with race. NO has not been hit by a storm like this in our history. Humans are arrogant. We didnt think it could happen so we weren't prepared for it. Next time however there is a cat 5 in NO, very few people will even get wet. Why because wehen we fix this it will be done with the recent disaster fresh in mind. and we wont want it to happen again."

    If what you said above is your proof that race had nothing to do with the decisons whatsoever...then I am not convinced. We we under prepared, absolutely. But we could have had relief supplies and personnel enroute on the day after if we chose to. The federal government was negligent at the very least. Part of the blame does lie with the Mayor and Gov. but I am sure they were asking for federal aid at least one day after the storm hit.

    "Race only matters if people point it out and use it as an excuse."

    So you are saying that there is no discrimination? Race only matters if I point it out....so if I (or we) don't point it out then its not there and its insignificant? That kind of sounds like we should just put our heads in the sand and chant something over and over to ourselves. :-)
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