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  1. cardio's Avatar
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    #1341  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    I have, BTW, seen Firemen interviewed on TV telling this story ...
    Not saying you did not see it, nor that the individuals did not say it. What I am saying is that firefighters (firemen actually are the people who keep the fire burning for steam driven trains) are notorius for complaining if they are tasked with a non-glory job. Which I can understand after all the training that is involved you feel like you should be fighting fires and saving babies, not passing out information, or inspecting buildings for compliance or doing media realtions or teaching fire safety to kids in schools.
  2. #1342  
    Port Comes Back Early, Surprisingly
    Shipping Resumes On a Small Scale

    By Keith L. Alexander and Neil Irwin
    Washington Post Staff Writers
    Wednesday, September 14, 2005; Page D01

    NEW ORLEANS, Sept. 13 -- The Port of New Orleans began unloading its first cargo ship since Hurricane Katrina on Tuesday night, months sooner than was predicted, a sign that disruption to the nation's shipping capacity may be less severe than originally forecast....
    More
  3. #1343  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    My point was that it is not the Mayor's fault if the ACoE's assumption that the levees and floodwalls would hold was wrong. The local government planned for a hurricane, and they did that quite ok. They apparently did not expect the floodwalls to break because the ACoEs did not expect that. Or maybe ACoE did expect them to break, but didn't tell the Mayor, or they did tell the Mayor and he did not act accordingly, or did not have a good plan for that event, which would make it his problem.

    I guess it is the responsibility of the floodwall engineers and the construction company to aviod structural flaws. Also damage from debris should be part of the calculations, in the case of hurricanes.

    It is a political decision to say the levees and floodwalls should withstand a Category 3, 4 or 5 hurricane, so that you can expect to have, on average, one catastrophic event in 35, 65, or 130 years, or even less. Then it is the engineer's responsibility to achieve the desired level of security, without structural flaws.
    Once again, you seem to miss the point. Everything begins with local government.

    "The unveiling of the Mardi Gras Fountain was celebrated this year in typical New Orleans style. The cost of $2.4 million was paid by the Orleans Levee Board, the state agency whose main job is to protect the levees surrounding New Orleans — the same levees that failed after Katrina hit.

    "They misspent the money," says Billy Nungesser, a former top Republican official who was briefly president of the Levee Board. "Any dollar they wasted was a dollar that could have went in the levees."

    Story
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  4. vw2002's Avatar
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    #1344  
    "The local government planned for a hurricane, and they did that quite ok. "

    - clulup


    i cant stop laughing. the guy REALLY, truly believes this!!

    yeah they did great! i LOVED the way they planned to leave all those school buses in perfect configurations within their parking lots vs mobilizing them. i loved how the local govt was so organized that hundreds of people drowned because nothing was prearranged for them. they didnt get transportation ready, but they sure had those body bags ready ahead of time, didnt they?

    could the local govt have actually planned to use those buses to pick anyone up and rescue them from impending doom? nahh.. come on, that would be asking too much, right?

    if they had done THAT, they would have been more than quite ok, theyd have been heroes. but i guess many people here are just satisfied with them doing well, just "ok"
  5. #1345  
    Quote Originally Posted by vw2002
    "The local government planned for a hurricane, and they did that quite ok. "

    - clulup


    i cant stop laughing. the guy REALLY, truly believes this!!

    yeah they did great! i LOVED the way they planned to leave all those school buses in perfect configurations within their parking lots vs mobilizing them. i loved how the local govt was so organized that hundreds of people drowned because nothing was prearranged for them. they didnt get transportation ready, but they sure had those body bags ready ahead of time, didnt they?

    could the local govt have actually planned to use those buses to pick anyone up and rescue them from impending doom? nahh.. come on, that would be asking too much, right?

    if they had done THAT, they would have been more than quite ok, theyd have been heroes. but i guess many people here are just satisfied with them doing well, just "ok"
    I am glad you had a good laugh, but you didn't get what I wrote in my post.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  6. #1346  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Once again, you seem to miss the point. Everything begins with local government.

    "The unveiling of the Mardi Gras Fountain was celebrated this year in typical New Orleans style. The cost of $2.4 million was paid by the Orleans Levee Board, the state agency whose main job is to protect the levees surrounding New Orleans — the same levees that failed after Katrina hit.

    "They misspent the money," says Billy Nungesser, a former top Republican official who was briefly president of the Levee Board. "Any dollar they wasted was a dollar that could have went in the levees."

    Story
    I agree it would be very bad if money dedicated to flood control was wasted for the other things. But not everything begins with local government, there are quite a few things which are federal responsibility. Defense comes to mind. And, as the US Army Corps of Engineers internet site states:

    "The Corps was first called upon to address flood problems along the Mississippi river in the mid- 1800's. We began work on the Mississippi River and Tributaries Flood Control Project in 1928, and the Flood Control Act of 1936 gave the Corps the mission to provide flood protection to the entire country." (http://www.usace.army.mil/public.html#Flood)

    But of course I may be mistaken by my notion that the ACoE is in charge of construction and maintenance of the levees, maybe you have better information?
    Last edited by clulup; 09/15/2005 at 04:55 AM.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  7. #1347  
    The levees are the responsibility of the Orleans Levee Board, not the federal government.

    "In December of 1995, the Orleans Levee Board, the local government entity that oversees the levees and floodgates designed to protect New Orleans and the surrounding areas from rising waters, bragged in a supplement to the Times-Picayune newspaper about federal money received to protect the region from hurricanes.

    In the past four years, the Orleans Levee Board has built up its arsenal. The additional defenses are so critical that Levee Commissioners marched into Congress and brought back almost $60 million to help pay for protection," the pamphlet declared. "The most ambitious flood-fighting plan in generations was drafted. An unprecedented $140 million building campaign launched 41 projects....

    The Orleans Levee Board was also forced to defer $3.7 million in capital improvement projects in its 2001 budget after residents of the area rejected a proposed tax increase to fund its expanding operations. Long term deferments to nearly 60 projects, based on the revenue shortfall, totaled $47 million worth of work, including projects to shore up the floodwalls.

    No new state money had been allocated to the area's hurricane protection projects as of October of 2002, leaving the available 65 percent federal matching funds for such construction untouched.

    Blocked from financing the local portion of the flood fighting efforts, the levee board was unable to spend the federal matching funds that had been designated for the project."

    They managed to p!ss away the federal money the got, and failed to secure another 65% of the money that was available to them through matching funds.

    Government begins at the local level.

    Info
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  8. #1348  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I agree it would be very bad if money dedicated to flood control was wasted for the other things. But not everything begins with local government, there are quite a few things which are federal responsibility. Defense comes to mind. And, as the US Army Corps of Engineers internet site states:

    "The Corps was first called upon to address flood problems along the Mississippi river in the mid- 1800's. We began work on the Mississippi River and Tributaries Flood Control Project in 1928, and the Flood Control Act of 1936 gave the Corps the mission to provide flood protection to the entire country." (http://www.usace.army.mil/public.html#Flood)

    But of course I may be mistaken by my notion that the ACoE is in charge of construction and maintenance of the levees, maybe you have better information?
    From the third pargraph of your source (emphasis added by me):
    Today, most Corps constructed flood protection projects are owned by sponsoring cities, towns, and agricultural districts, but the Corps continues to maintain and operate 383 dams and reservoirs for flood control.
    I have not searched any further to determine ownership of the NOLA levees.
  9. #1349  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Sure enough there are two helos in that hangar.

    Thousands? Your hatred consumes you. Bush's poll numbers have withstood the media onslaught, and are beginning to rebound. Please, please, please keep politicizing this tragedy.

    As someone who once long ago dabbled in politics, I have never been a strong believer in polls. I'm especially uncomfortable with the reporting of polls (which are a tool to divine sentiment -- but are often used as a mechanism to influence, reenforce, and manipulate opinion).

    But since you have made mention of junior's polls becoming stronger as a product of my hatred of him, I guess its appropriate to cite the liberal The Wall Street Journal polling data


    Katrina Erodes Support In U.S. for Iraq War


    Bush's Rating as Crisis Manager Declines in Poll as Pessimism
    About the Economy Grows

    By JOHN HARWOOD
    Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
    September 15, 2005

    WASHINGTON -- Hurricane Katrina has accelerated the erosion in public support for the Iraq war as President Bush's core of supporters dwindles and economic pessimism turns Americans' attention inward.

    A new Wall Street Journal/NBC News Poll shows that cutting spending on Iraq is Americans' top choice for financing the recovery from Katrina. Shaken by high gas prices and bracing for further jolts, Americans have turned negative about Mr. Bush across the board -- on handling the economy, foreign policy, and even the war on terrorism.

    The president's overall approval has fallen to a record-low for Mr. Bush of 40%, reflecting a shrunken core of base supporters. That promises to have repercussions for his domestic agenda on issues like Social Security, taxes and immigration, and leaves Mr. Bush with a steeper challenge on his most significant second-term priority: using American power and resources to transform Iraq and the broader Middle East.

    A plurality of Americans has favored reducing troop levels in Iraq for most of the year. Now, 55% favor bringing soldiers home, while just 36% back Mr. Bush's position that current levels should be maintained to help secure peace and stability.

    "His standing to prosecute that case has been made more difficult," says Republican pollster Bill McInturff, who helps conduct the Journal/NBC Poll. Adds Democratic counterpart Peter Hart: It's "going to be very hard to just move straight forward" on Iraq...

    ... Some 60% say rebuilding the Gulf Coast should be a higher national priority than establishing democracy in Iraq; 5% say Iraq, while 34% say the two are equally important.


    The White House says the administration can handle both at once, but by 51%-37% Americans say the Iraq war wasn't worth its human and financial costs.

    The proportion of Republicans disapproving of Mr. Bush's job performance has doubled
    to 15% from 7% in January, with pronounced defections among moderates within Mr. Bush's party.

    Katrina has contributed to that decline in support. By a 58%-38% margin, Americans say they are dissatisfied with the Bush administration's response to the catastrophe. Reflecting the absence of the traditional rally behind the commander in chief during national emergencies, just 48% approve of the president's handling of the matter; 80% approved of how he handled the aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, while 64% backed the actions of his father, President George H.W. Bush, following Hurricane Andrew in 1992...

    ...Katrina appears to have shaken public regard on two attributes that sustained Mr. Bush through earlier political challenges. The public now splits evenly, 41%-41%, on assessments of Mr. Bush's ability to handle a crisis; at the outset of his second term in January, he received positive marks for crisis-management ability by a 56%-28% margin. A bare 43%-40% plurality rates him positively for having "strong leadership qualities," down from 52%-30% in January...

    ...Fully 70% of African-Americans say the Bush administration would have reacted to Katrina with greater urgency had the affected areas been mostly white suburbs rather than mostly black inner-city neighborhoods...

    ... Assessments of the administration's handling of Social Security -- 28% say they are satisfied while 60% aren't -- are more negative than assessments of how it handled the response to Katrina...

    ...gas prices as the country's top economic issue. Just 6% assign top importance to federal taxes, the issue that Mr. Bush and Republicans planned to elevate next year through a yet-unspecified overhaul of the tax system...

    ...Katrina may have left the public feeling slightly more nervous about security at home. Fully 75% of Americans now say the U.S. isn't adequately prepared for a nuclear, biological or chemical attack...
    Last edited by BARYE; 09/16/2005 at 06:44 AM.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  10. #1350  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    As someone who once long ago dabbled in politics, I have never been a strong believer in polls. I'm especially uncomfortable with the reporting of polls (which are a tool to divine sentiment -- but are often used as a mechanism to influence, reenforce, and manipulate opinion).

    But since you have made mention of junior's polls becoming stronger as a product of my hatred of him, I guess its appropriate to cite the liberal The Wall Street Journal polling data


    Katrina Erodes Support In U.S. for Iraq War


    Bush's Rating as Crisis Manager Declines in Poll as Pessimism
    About the Economy Grows

    By JOHN HARWOOD
    Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
    September 15, 2005

    WASHINGTON -- Hurricane Katrina has accelerated the erosion in public support for the Iraq war as President Bush's core of supporters dwindles and economic pessimism turns Americans' attention inward.

    A new Wall Street Journal/NBC News Poll shows that cutting spending on Iraq is Americans' top choice for financing the recovery from Katrina. Shaken by high gas prices and bracing for further jolts, Americans have turned negative about Mr. Bush across the board -- on handling the economy, foreign policy, and even the war on terrorism.

    The president's overall approval has fallen to a record-low for Mr. Bush of 40%, reflecting a shrunken core of base supporters. That promises to have repercussions for his domestic agenda on issues like Social Security, taxes and immigration, and leaves Mr. Bush with a steeper challenge on his most significant second-term priority: using American power and resources to transform Iraq and the broader Middle East.

    A plurality of Americans has favored reducing troop levels in Iraq for most of the year. Now, 55% favor bringing soldiers home, while just 36% back Mr. Bush's position that current levels should be maintained to help secure peace and stability.

    "His standing to prosecute that case has been made more difficult," says Republican pollster Bill McInturff, who helps conduct the Journal/NBC Poll. Adds Democratic counterpart Peter Hart: It's "going to be very hard to just move straight forward" on Iraq...

    ... Some 60% say rebuilding the Gulf Coast should be a higher national priority than establishing democracy in Iraq; 5% say Iraq, while 34% say the two are equally important.


    The White House says the administration can handle both at once, but by 51%-37% Americans say the Iraq war wasn't worth its human and financial costs.

    The proportion of Republicans disapproving of Mr. Bush's job performance has doubled
    to 15% from 7% in January, with pronounced defections among moderates within Mr. Bush's party.

    Katrina has contributed to that decline in support. By a 58%-38% margin, Americans say they are dissatisfied with the Bush administration's response to the catastrophe. Reflecting the absence of the traditional rally behind the commander in chief during national emergencies, just 48% approve of the president's handling of the matter; 80% approved of how he handled the aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, while 64% backed the actions of his father, President George H.W. Bush, following Hurricane Andrew in 1992...

    ...Katrina appears to have shaken public regard on two attributes that sustained Mr. Bush through earlier political challenges. The public now splits evenly, 41%-41%, on assessments of Mr. Bush's ability to handle a crisis; at the outset of his second term in January, he received positive marks for crisis-management ability by a 56%-28% margin. A bare 43%-40% plurality rates him positively for having "strong leadership qualities," down from 52%-30% in January...

    ...Fully 70% of African-Americans say the Bush administration would have reacted to Katrina with greater urgency had the affected areas been mostly white suburbs rather than mostly black inner-city neighborhoods...

    ... Assessments of the administration's handling of Social Security -- 28% say they are satisfied while 60% aren't -- are more negative than assessments of how it handled the response to Katrina...

    ...gas prices as the country's top economic issue. Just 6% assign top importance to federal taxes, the issue that Mr. Bush and Republicans planned to elevate next year through a yet-unspecified overhaul of the tax system...

    ...Katrina may have left the public feeling slightly more nervous about security at home. Fully 75% of Americans now say the U.S. isn't adequately prepared for a nuclear, biological or chemical attack...
    Yes. Polls are often used by the media to push an agenda.

    I'm surprised that only 70% of blacks believe the slow response was due to institutional racism. My read on that number is that the more of those people are, as you put it, "unfortunately" leaving the Democrat reservation.

    I am not surprised to see that 6% have tax relief as a priority. Ignorance of what makes this country work...i.e. generate jobs, is rife.

    October. When Iraq votes again in October you'll see those polls swing around. More purple fingers (I wish they would dip the middle finger of those Iraqi voters so the media will get a dose of the salutes they have coming.) will show progress.

    Gas prices will fall. Relief efforts will move to the fore. President Bush resonated last night when he addressed how poverty will be dealt with in the effected areas. The Democrats will continue to be shrill and scream for more of the same policies that have made them a minority party. I will continue to gloat. We'll see come November 06.
    Last edited by 1911sforever; 09/16/2005 at 08:45 AM.
  11. cardio's Avatar
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    #1351  
    Boy, the MSM sure did not put this in bold print did they.

    She finally came around...but only after being caught red handed! Dave

    Breaking News from NewsMax.com

    Kathleen Blanco: I Should Have Called the Military

    Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco's abrupt decision Wednesday night to take responsibility for her state's inadequate response to the Hurricane Katrina disaster followed an inadvertent confession that was caught on camera where Blanco admitted she blew it.

    "I really should have called for the military," Blanco said, while chatting with her press secretary in between TV interviews. "I really should have started that in the first call."

    Unbeknownst to Blanco, her bombshell acknowledgment was recorded on a network satellite feed, and by Tuesday the clip was getting wide exposure in Louisiana news broadcasts.

    In the early days of the Katrina crisis, disaster management experts repeatedly blamed the failure to send in the National Guard for the city's descent into chaos.

    Most observers blamed the White House for the blunder - a misconception that was thoroughly dispelled by the governor's inadvertent confession.
    Some say Blanco's blooper was responsible for the abrupt change of tone in her speech Wednesday night to the Louisiana legislature.

    Where earlier she and her aides had openly blamed the Bush administration for bungling Katrina rescue efforts, Blanco announced: "The buck stops here, and as your governor, I take full responsibility."

    Just as surprising were Blanco's words of praise for the White House: "I want the people of Louisiana to know that we have a friend and a partner in President George W. Bush. I thank you, Mr. President."
  12. cardio's Avatar
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    #1352  
    Did not confirm this story, but it is from Michael Moores website

    I was unaware that we had occupied New Orleans

    Mother Sheehan jumps the shark, at (where else?) MichaelMoore.com. (Hat tip: protein wisdom.)

    I don’t care if a human being is black, brown, white, yellow or pink. I don’t care if a human being is Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, or pagan. I don’t care what flag a person salutes: if a human being is hungry, then it is up to another human being to feed him/her. George Bush needs to stop talking, admit the mistakes of his all around failed administration, pull our troops out of occupied New Orleans and Iraq, and excuse his self from power. The only way America will become more secure is if we have a new administration that cares about Americans even if they don’t fall into the top two percent of the wealthiest.
  13. #1353  
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  14. #1354  
    So what the heck's the PNAC? Is it like the Tri-Lateral Commission? The Freemasons? The CFR? I'm a Neocon, but I must have missed the memo.
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  15. #1355  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    So what the heck's the PNAC? Is it like the Tri-Lateral Commission? The Freemasons? The CFR? I'm a Neocon, but I must have missed the memo.
    Project for the New American Century
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  16. #1356  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Project for the New American Century
    Aha! These guys:

    The Project for the New American Century is a non-profit educational organization dedicated to a few fundamental propositions: that American leadership is good both for America and for the world; and that such leadership requires military strength, diplomatic energy and commitment to moral principle.

    The Project for the New American Century intends, through issue briefs, research papers, advocacy journalism, conferences, and seminars, to explain what American world leadership entails. It will also strive to rally support for a vigorous and principled policy of American international involvement and to stimulate useful public debate on foreign and defense policy and America's role in the world.
    How truly diabolical! They must be stopped!

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  17. #1357  
    Since the administration is failed, Cindy wants us to pull our troops out of occupied New Orleans. Then what??
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  18. cardio's Avatar
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    #1358  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Since the administration is failed, Cindy wants us to pull our troops out of occupied New Orleans. Then what??
    Well according to Sheehaningans antoher person would feed them. Then it all would be well as long as George Bush excuses his self (ebonics page eleventyseven translates his self to himself) from power.

    I might be mistaken, but it seemed that Michael Moore and his group were complaining that the federal troops were not there soon enough and with enough force. I guess there are too many there now.
    Last edited by cardio; 09/16/2005 at 04:10 PM.
  19. #1359  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Since the administration is failed, Cindy wants us to pull our troops out of occupied New Orleans. Then what??
    You're trying to make sense of madness.

    Bush is perceived as reacting too slowly: "Why can't he get troops on the ground yesterday!"
    Bush reacts by sending troops: "Pull the occupiers out now!"

    Sheesh. The only thing consistent is the hatred of Bush (who can't even run again...).
    Current: iPhone 3G
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  20. #1360  
    Got it.
    Well behaved women rarely make history

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