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  1. #1321  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    It actually was in the news, e.g here on CBS, as early as September 5:
    It's good to see at least one news organization managed to get around to reporting it - six days after the event. But as the CBS piece indicates in the first sentence you quoted, "Despite what you've been hearing..."
    I still get the impression that Nagin executed quite a good plan for a hurricane in quite a good way, but the collapsing walls were not part of the scenario because those responsible for them did not anticipate it.
    I think you missed my whole point - if the floodwalls collapsed due to a structural flaw or damage from debris, how exactly was the ACoE to have anticipated that? Read the NO Times-Picayune article I linked earlier. Whether any flood control structured overtopped is not entirely clear. Everyone has been operation under the assumption that the flooding in NO was predictable and avoidable. All I'm saying is that may not be a safe assumption.
    Last edited by phurth; 09/14/2005 at 07:38 AM.
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  2. #1322  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    I think you missed my whole point - if the floodwalls collapsed due to a structural flaw or damage from debris, how exactly was the ACoE to have anticipated that? Everyone has been operation under the assumption that the flooding in NO was predictable and avoidable. All I'm saying is that may not be a safe assumption.
    My point was that it is not the Mayor's fault if the ACoE's assumption that the levees and floodwalls would hold was wrong. The local government planned for a hurricane, and they did that quite ok. They apparently did not expect the floodwalls to break because the ACoEs did not expect that. Or maybe ACoE did expect them to break, but didn't tell the Mayor, or they did tell the Mayor and he did not act accordingly, or did not have a good plan for that event, which would make it his problem.

    I guess it is the responsibility of the floodwall engineers and the construction company to aviod structural flaws. Also damage from debris should be part of the calculations, in the case of hurricanes.

    It is a political decision to say the levees and floodwalls should withstand a Category 3, 4 or 5 hurricane, so that you can expect to have, on average, one catastrophic event in 35, 65, or 130 years, or even less. Then it is the engineer's responsibility to achieve the desired level of security, without structural flaws.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
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    #1323  
    Here is a question that can be asked of a demorcratic congressman from NO

    Which is more important: Your laptop or the poor, aged, sick in you town?

    http://www.abcnews.go.com/US/Hurrica...1123495&page=3

    It seems that his laptop was top priority (maybe it had some questionalbe information that needed taken care of????
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    #1324  
    I am not sure if this article has been referenced before or not

    http://www.abcnews.go.com/US/Hurrica...1123495&page=3

    Money Flowed to Questionable Projects
    State Leads in Army Corps Spending, but Millions Had Nothing to Do With Floods

    By Michael Grunwald
    Washington Post Staff Writer
    Thursday, September 8, 2005; Page A01

    Before Hurricane Katrina breached a levee on the New Orleans Industrial Canal, the Army Corps of Engineers had already launched a $748 million construction project at that very location. But the project had nothing to do with flood control. The Corps was building a huge new lock for the canal, an effort to accommodate steadily increasing barge traffic. Except that barge traffic on the canal has been steadily decreasing

    But hundreds of millions of dollars have gone to unrelated water projects demanded by the state's congressional delegation.

    Lots of money given, maybe they should have focused on levees or canal walls instead of their pockets
  5. #1325  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Here is a question that can be asked of a demorcratic congressman from NO

    Which is more important: Your laptop or the poor, aged, sick in you town?

    http://www.abcnews.go.com/US/Hurrica...1123495&page=3

    It seems that his laptop was top priority (maybe it had some questionalbe information that needed taken care of????
    Fair criticism. The guy took away rescuers and a Coast Guard helicopter for a non-essential use.



    I guess then that you're at least a thousand times as outraged at junior commandeering Coast Guard helicopters and firemen for his photo ops ???
    Last edited by BARYE; 09/14/2005 at 01:32 PM.
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  6. #1326  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Fair criticism. The guy took away rescuers and a Coast Guard helicopter for a non-essential use.



    I guess then that you're at least a thousand times as outraged at junior commandeering Coast Guard helicopters and fireman for his photo ops ???
    You must have had a typo there. The word is "commanding". He commands those troops and was using them to get a view of the situation. That's his job. That's their job.

    There's nothing political about that.
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  7. NRG
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    #1327  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Fair criticism. The guy took away rescuers and a Coast Guard helicopter for a non-essential use.



    I guess then that you're at least a thousand times as outraged at junior commandeering Coast Guard helicopters and fireman for his photo ops ???


    There are slight differences, but there sure is ALOT of similarities.
  8. #1328  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Fair criticism. The guy took away rescuers and a Coast Guard helicopter for a non-essential use.



    I guess then that you're at least a thousand times as outraged at junior commandeering Coast Guard helicopters and firemen for his photo ops ???
    Yep, sure am - politicians should never do any photo ops.
  9. #1329  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Fair criticism. The guy took away rescuers and a Coast Guard helicopter for a non-essential use.



    I guess then that you're at least a thousand times as outraged at junior commandeering Coast Guard helicopters and firemen for his photo ops ???
    Or is that helicopter in the hangar for maintenance? Do you think maybe guys in the military (the vast majority of whom voted for Bush) would like to have a glimpse of their commander in chief?
  10. #1330  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Yep, sure am - politicians should never do any photo ops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Yep, sure am - politicians should never do any photo ops.

    let him play all the phoney strutting around all he wants in front of his bathroom mirror.

    When lives are literally in the balance what they have done is criminal.

    junior learned from Lee Atwater, Karl Rove, and Ronnie raygun that "truth and substance" are just props to be manipulated to produce your own "reality" --

    They have understood for decades that the only thing that matters is what people are told -- and what they are allowed to see on TV.

    Control the photo Op, control talk radio -- make your own reality.

    Nightline described on the previous night FEMA staff being called back from their rescue work to assist the White House and FEMA to answer the criticism they were gettin, to help junior, Brownie, & Chertoff (?) prepare for their NUMEROUS TV appearances.


    The liberal Salt Lake Utah Tribune (among many others) mentioned the important use of Firemen last week

    Frustrated: Fire crews to hand out fliers for FEMA
    by Lisa Rosetta
    The Salt Lake Tribune

    ...Roy Fire Chief Jon Ritchie said his crews would be a "little frustrated" if they were assigned to hand out phone numbers at an evacuee center in Texas rather than find and treat victims of the disaster.

    Also of concern to some of the firefighters is the cost borne by their municipalities in the wake of their absence. Cities are picking up the tab to fill the firefighters' vacancies while they work 30 days for the federal government.

    "There are all of these guys with all of this training and we're sending them out to hand out a phone number," an Oregon firefighter said. "They [the hurricane victims] are screaming for help and this day [of FEMA training] was a waste."

    Firefighters say they want to brave the heat, the debris-littered roads, the poisonous cottonmouth snakes and fire ants and travel into pockets of Louisiana where many people have yet to receive emergency aid.

    But as specific orders began arriving to the firefighters in Atlanta, a team of 50 Monday morning quickly was ushered onto a flight headed for Louisiana. The crew's first assignment: to stand beside President Bush as he tours devastated areas
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    #1331  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Fair criticism. The guy took away rescuers and a Coast Guard helicopter for a non-essential use.



    I guess then that you're at least a thousand times as outraged at junior commandeering Coast Guard helicopters and firemen for his photo ops ???
    I have already voiced my disgust with photo-ops. Been there done that for the dog and pony shows.
  12. #1332  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Or is that helicopter in the hangar for maintenance? Do you think maybe guys in the military (the vast majority of whom voted for Bush) would like to have a glimpse of their commander in chief?

    there are at least 2 helios in that picture -- and that was while they were still in the middle of actively saving folks.

    Thousands of workers were diverted from rescue to be props for junior -- but except for Cardio -- the rest of you think this is justified ...
    Last edited by BARYE; 09/14/2005 at 02:19 PM.
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    #1333  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    let him play all the phoney strutting around all he wants in front of his bathroom mirror.

    When lives are literally in the balance what they have done is criminal.

    junior learned from Lee Atwater, Karl Rove, and Ronnie raygun that "truth and substance" are just props to be manipulated to produce your own "reality" --

    They have understood for decades that the only thing that matters is what people are told -- and what they are allowed to see on TV.

    Control the photo Op, control talk radio -- make your own reality.

    Nightline described on the previous night FEMA staff being called back from their rescue work to assist the White House and FEMA to answer the criticism they were gettin, to help junior, Brownie, & Chertoff (?) prepare for their NUMEROUS TV appearances.


    The liberal Salt Lake Utah Tribune (among many others) mentioned the important use of Firemen last week

    Frustrated: Fire crews to hand out fliers for FEMA
    by Lisa Rosetta
    The Salt Lake Tribune

    ...Roy Fire Chief Jon Ritchie said his crews would be a "little frustrated" if they were assigned to hand out phone numbers at an evacuee center in Texas rather than find and treat victims of the disaster.

    Also of concern to some of the firefighters is the cost borne by their municipalities in the wake of their absence. Cities are picking up the tab to fill the firefighters' vacancies while they work 30 days for the federal government.

    "There are all of these guys with all of this training and we're sending them out to hand out a phone number," an Oregon firefighter said. "They [the hurricane victims] are screaming for help and this day [of FEMA training] was a waste."

    Firefighters say they want to brave the heat, the debris-littered roads, the poisonous cottonmouth snakes and fire ants and travel into pockets of Louisiana where many people have yet to receive emergency aid.

    But as specific orders began arriving to the firefighters in Atlanta, a team of 50 Monday morning quickly was ushered onto a flight headed for Louisiana. The crew's first assignment: to stand beside President Bush as he tours devastated areas
    This article was first posted on a blog, then picked up by the media. Sometimes we have to accept the non-glorified roles when we really want to play John Wayne and be on TV as a hero carrying somone out of danger. Most of us think we are more important than we really are and the blogs let us tell everyone how we used in the wrong format since I am so good at what I do.
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    #1334  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    there are at least 2 helios in that picture -- and that was while they were sttill in the middle of actively saving folks.

    Thousands of workers were diverted from rescue to be props for junior -- but except for Cardio -- the rest of you think this is justified ...
    BARYE, where do you get Thousands of workers from? I agree that we do not need additional props for the photo-op, but let's not make up numbers.
  15. #1335  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    This article was first posted on a blog, then picked up by the media. Sometimes we have to accept the non-glorified roles when we really want to play John Wayne and be on TV as a hero carrying somone out of danger. Most of us think we are more important than we really are and the blogs let us tell everyone how we used in the wrong format since I am so good at what I do.

    I have, BTW, seen Firemen interviewed on TV telling this story ...
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  16. #1336  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    let him play all the phoney strutting around all he wants in front of his bathroom mirror.
    Absolutely, he is illegitmate.

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    junior learned from ...Karl Rove
    Don't you mean...Rooovvvvveeee. Evil Rovveee. I'm gonna be Rove for Halloween this year. :0 He's so scary!
  17. #1337  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    I have, BTW, seen Firemen interviewed on TV telling this story ...
    Yep it's true. I read it on a reliable liberal blog.
  18. #1338  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    there are at least 2 helios in that picture -- and that was while they were still in the middle of actively saving folks.

    Thousands of workers were diverted from rescue to be props for junior -- but except for Cardio -- the rest of you think this is justified ...
    The Commander in Chief needs a reasonably sized and equiped contingent to brief him and escort him around the area. Guys brought in to stand around and look heroic aren't necessary but are a fixture with visits from the CinC.

    I've been a prop for Reagan but we didn't have anything going on that day anyway.
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  19. #1339  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    there are at least 2 helios in that picture -- and that was while they were still in the middle of actively saving folks.

    Thousands of workers were diverted from rescue to be props for junior -- but except for Cardio -- the rest of you think this is justified ...
    Sure enough there are two helos in that hangar.

    Thousands? Your hatred consumes you. Bush's poll numbers have withstood the media onslaught, and are beginning to rebound. Please, please, please keep politicizing this tragedy.
  20. #1340  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    BARYE, where do you get Thousands of workers from? I agree that we do not need additional props for the photo-op, but let's not make up numbers.

    I am hypothesizing that the numbers of people required to secure, transport, and support junior while he traipsed through disaster zones in MS. and LA.

    Heck, it takes hundreds for him to move by Limo between hotels here in DC.
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