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  1. cardio's Avatar
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    #1181  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Over the weekend I saw interviews (Meet the press ??) with the mayor where he spoke about not having drivers for the buses -- (that they had already fled with their own families)

    Criticism of N.O. is kind of unfair for several reasons -- unlike Florida, N.O. has less often been a hurricane target and has not therefore experienced previous "dry run" evacuation trials before where problems could have been seen and rectified.

    Though the risk was always there like the sword of Damocles, it had only been a hypothetical one -- and its hard to organize and evacuate a poor, old, and infirm community of more than 100,000 people in hours -- and for the first time. (that the 80% of N.O. with their own cars left, is amazing.)


    The key issue for me has been the question I asked on day one:

    why were not the levees intensely monitored during the 12 hours after Katrina passed ??

    why was not equipment , personnel, and helicopters provisioned to respond pro-actively as water overflow was observed to weaken the levees ??

    In the immediate aftermath of an identified breach, why was not heaven and earth moved to repair the breach before it could become so wide that it would be unrepairable ??



    (BTW – I’m not supposed to come out and play today – so this maybe one of my few “contributions” )
    I guess you answered your own question in the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs. NO was not prepared.
  2. cardio's Avatar
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    #1182  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    They were.

    They were in a way I think. The heli that was supposed to fill the breach was ordered somewhere else to do evac. To this day I want to know who gave the order.

    See answer above.


    (BTW – I’m not supposed to come out and play today – so this maybe one of my few “contributions” )
    [/QUOTE]

    I have seen the supposed recall of the helo for an evac posted here and here only. Was this a LA Guard Helo, at some point someone said it was a black hawk which is not ideally suited for carrying and placing large cargo loads, but more for search and rescue with an 11 person capacity.
  3. #1183  
    I have seen the supposed recall of the helo for an evac posted here and here only. Was this a LA Guard Helo, at some point someone said it was a black hawk which is not ideally suited for carrying and placing large cargo loads, but more for search and rescue with an 11 person capacity.[/QUOTE]
    11 seated, 22 without seats.

    You're right about its lift constraints.

    Air Assault!
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  4. #1184  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Over the weekend I saw interviews (Meet the press ??) with the mayor where he spoke about not having drivers for the buses -- (that they had already fled with their own families)

    Criticism of N.O. is kind of unfair for several reasons -- unlike Florida, N.O. has less often been a hurricane target and has not therefore experienced previous "dry run" evacuation trials before where problems could have been seen and rectified.
    Er... how about the dry run they did last year?
    http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/newsr...rripamends.htm
    Though the risk was always there like the sword of Damocles, it had only been a hypothetical one -- and its hard to organize and evacuate a poor, old, and infirm community of more than 100,000 people in hours -- and for the first time. (that the 80% of N.O. with their own cars left, is amazing.)
    No dispute here. I've been saying all along that people don't plan for hypothetical threats, no matter how serious (see the whole New Madrid fault discussion earlier).
    why were not the levees intensely monitored during the 12 hours after Katrina passed ??
    A good question. A guess: because the much feared direct hit seemed to have been avoided. It's interesting that the mayor also seemed unaware of the seriousness of the early breaches.
    why was not equipment , personnel, and helicopters provisioned to respond pro-actively as water overflow was observed to weaken the levees ??
    Equipment and provisions had been pre-positioned by FEMA at the limits of the anticipated storm track (they'd have done little good had they been destroyed by the storm). Not being psychic, they had no way of knowing exactly where the storm would go and how far the damage would extend. Once the storm passed, it took a certain amount of time to get resources on scene. People were being plucked from roofs and rescued from the water by Coast Guard and Navy helicopters almost immediately.
    In the immediate aftermath of an identified breach, why was not heaven and earth moved to repair the breach before it could become so wide that it would be unrepairable ??
    I've not seen much reporting on how the levees gave way and what was done during that time, but remember they ended up with a total of 3 (possibly 4, I don't recall) breaches. How were they to know which would be the one big one? Which should they have repaired first? I don't know... but I'd be interested in finding out.
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  5. #1185  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    When I have more time maybe we can do a speculative thread on "inflection points of WW2" -- if you and others are interested ...
    Does the Emperor have a certain special knowledge of misguided adventures into Russia?
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  6. cardio's Avatar
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    #1186  
    Embattled FEMA Director Mike Brown Resigns
    Sep 12 3:00 PM US/Eastern

    http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/09/12/D8CIT0UO1.html
    By RON FOURNIER
    AP Political Writer


    WASHINGTON


    Federal Emergency Management Agency director Mike Brown said Monday he has resigned "in the best interest of the agency and best interest of the president," three days after losing his onsite command of the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

    "The focus has got to be on FEMA, what the people are trying to do down there," Brown told The Associated Press.
  7. cardio's Avatar
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    #1187  
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    I have seen the supposed recall of the helo for an evac posted here and here only. Was this a LA Guard Helo, at some point someone said it was a black hawk which is not ideally suited for carrying and placing large cargo loads, but more for search and rescue with an 11 person capacity.
    11 seated, 22 without seats.

    You're right about its lift constraints.

    Air Assault![/QUOTE]

    Thanks for the clarification, I was going off memory of when I was stationed with a few Rangers in Florida
  8. #1188  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Embattled FEMA Director Mike Brown Resigns
    Sep 12 3:00 PM US/Eastern

    http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/09/12/D8CIT0UO1.html
    By RON FOURNIER
    AP Political Writer


    WASHINGTON


    Federal Emergency Management Agency director Mike Brown said Monday he has resigned "in the best interest of the agency and best interest of the president," three days after losing his onsite command of the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

    "The focus has got to be on FEMA, what the people are trying to do down there," Brown told The Associated Press.

    I was just going to post this.
    http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/wea...ck=1&cset=true

    I wonder if he resigned on his own or if the President "encouraged" him to do so since he had publicly stated he wouldnt fire him.
    The value of knowledge is not in its possession, but in its use.
  9. #1189  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    I guess you answered your own question in the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs. NO was not prepared.
    You do know that the Army Corps of Engineers was/is in charge of levee construction, maintenance and repair? "Army" sounds federal to me, but what do I know...
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  10. #1190  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    11 seated, 22 without seats.

    You're right about its lift constraints.

    Air Assault!
    Thanks for the clarification, I was going off memory of when I was stationed with a few Rangers in Florida[/QUOTE]
    You weren't with those "red door" aviators, were you?
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  11. #1191  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    No dispute here. I've been saying all along that people don't plan for hypothetical threats, no matter how serious (see the whole New Madrid fault discussion earlier).
    Just because you don't plan for obvious risks does not mean others don't, either.

    Besides, a hurricane in NO is not a hypothetical risk. It's clear and present danger.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  12. #1192  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Just because you don't plan for obvious risks does not mean others don't, either.

    Besides, a hurricane in NO is not a hypothetical risk. It's clear and present danger.
    Agreed. That is why is it ridiculous the Mayor did not carry out there plan to evacuate with the existing buses.
  13. cardio's Avatar
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    #1193  
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    Thanks for the clarification, I was going off memory of when I was stationed with a few Rangers in Florida
    You weren't with those "red door" aviators, were you?[/QUOTE]

    No, we provided fire protection services to include medical during field manuvers. We basically lived with them in the field, only difference was we were exepmpt from the training exercise so we could provide real world services.
  14. NRG
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    #1194  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Agreed. That is why is it ridiculous the Mayor did not carry out there plan to evacuate with the existing buses.
    I think he mentioned on meet the press that they did not have enough drivers, the drivers left with their families. End of bus story.
  15. #1195  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Just because you don't plan for obvious risks does not mean others don't, either.
    Me? All I've said is that it's human nature to avoid planning for bad things that aren't perceived as immediate threats. That's rather hard to dispute...
    Besides, a hurricane in NO is not a hypothetical risk. It's clear and present danger.
    Up until last Monday, a category 4 hurricane hitting so close to New Orleans was exactly that. It had never before occurred. Ever. It was a statistical certainty that at some point it would. We have an adjective for things that are predicted but have not yet occurred: hypothetical.
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  16. #1196  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    I think he mentioned on meet the press that they did not have enough drivers, the drivers left with their families. End of bus story.
    So the plan called for heaps of busses, but no drivers? If that's the end of the story, it's not a very good ending.
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  17. #1197  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    I think he mentioned on meet the press that they did not have enough drivers, the drivers left with their families. End of bus story.
    Why didnt they use the National Guard to drive the buses??
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  18. #1198  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    I've not seen much reporting on how the levees gave way and what was done during that time, but remember they ended up with a total of 3 (possibly 4, I don't recall) breaches. How were they to know which would be the one big one? Which should they have repaired first? I don't know... but I'd be interested in finding out.
    Did a little digging... guess what? In hindsight it's clear that two things could have happened to the levees: they could have been overtopped or they could have failed structurally. Guess what all of the plans seem to have assumed would happen? Overtopping. Guess what no one seems to have predicted? Structual failure. We all know what happened: structural failure in at least three places. Snip from a NYT article from 9/1/05:
    Army Corps personnel, in charge of maintaining the levees in New Orleans, started to secure the locks, floodgates and other equipment, said Greg Breerwood, deputy district engineer for project management at the Army Corps of Engineers.

    "We knew if it was going to be a Category 5, some levees and some flood walls would be overtopped," he said. "We never did think they would actually be breached."
    Link
    What actually happened to the levees might indeed have been entirely unexpected.
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  19. #1199  
    Wow, I wonder what would happen if the governor of NO was a religious right winger? Who would we blame? The democrat mayor? Michael Moore? lol


  20. #1200  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Embattled FEMA Director Mike Brown Resigns
    Sep 12 3:00 PM US/Eastern

    http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/09/12/D8CIT0UO1.html
    By RON FOURNIER
    AP Political Writer


    WASHINGTON


    Federal Emergency Management Agency director Mike Brown said Monday he has resigned "in the best interest of the agency and best interest of the president," three days after losing his onsite command of the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

    "The focus has got to be on FEMA, what the people are trying to do down there," Brown told The Associated Press.
    "Brownie, you're doing a helluva job"

    Which out of touch guy said that again?


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