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  1. #1161  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    please forgive a minor detour on one of the most heinously evil beasts in modern history ...

    you're right, he was a highly decorated WW1 soldier who was thought to have earned, but not been awarded the Iron Cross -- and he was the only member of his particular unit to have survived the war (If my recollection is correct.)

    He won his election to Chancellor legitimately (though with less than a majority) in a free democratic election -- within the flawed Weimar republic system and structure.

    Hitler's "generalship" -- though often terrible -- was sometimes militarily inspired. And given the awful options that availed themselves after the failed invasion of the USSR, its not certain that any other outcome could have been achieved.

    There were several important inflection points that led to Germany's defeat:

    1. stupidly relying on the same cipher machine technology through out the war.

    2. deciding to invade Russia before defeating Britain.

    3. idiotically delaying the attack on Russia by 2 weeks (in order to assist the Italians in Yugoslavia, the Balkans and Greece) –- which trapped the German army in the deadly Russian winter before it was able to crush the Soviet Union.

    4. His psychotic hatred of Jews which drove some of Germany’s most brilliant and creative minds into the arms of his enemies –- while diverting crucial resources to his implementation the monstrous Holocaust.

    5. Unnecessarily declaring war against America after Japan’s failed attack on Pearl Harbor. (Without Germany declaring war against us first, its probable that Roosevelt would have had to direct our efforts far more against Japan. (its possible that Hitler had hoped that Japan would have concurrently declared war on Russia).

    Despite all this, Germany came dangerously close to winning WW2 -- much closer than is generally appreciated.

    Where, in your mind, was the real peril point, where Germany could have won WWII?
  2. #1162  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    If you are on the right and want to know what people on the left are thinking about the Katrina situation, this video pretty well sums it up.

    http://www.markfiore.com/animation/gras.html


    Doesnt mention the hundreds of busses that the mayor just let sit rather then use to help with the evacuation.....hmmm
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  3. #1163  
    My latest email from the Greatest Modern Democrat, Mr. Michael Moore...

    To All My Fellow Americans Who Voted for George W. Bush:

    On this, the fourth anniversary of 9/11, I'm just curious, how does it feel?

    How does it feel to know that the man you elected to lead us after we were attacked went ahead and put a guy in charge of FEMA whose main qualification was that he ran horse shows?

    That's right. Horse shows.

    I really want to know -- and I ask you this in all sincerity and with all due respect -- how do you feel about the utter contempt Mr. Bush has shown for your safety? C'mon, give me just a moment of honesty. Don't start ranting on about how this disaster in New Orleans was the fault of one of the poorest cities in America. Put aside your hatred of Democrats and liberals and anyone with the last name of Clinton. Just look me in the eye and tell me our President did the right thing after 9/11 by naming a horse show runner as the top man to protect us in case of an emergency or catastrophe.

    I want you to put aside your self-affixed label of Republican/conservative/born-again/capitalist/ditto-head/right-winger and just talk to me as an American, on the common ground we both call America.

    Are we safer now than before 9/11? When you learn that behind the horse show runner, the #2 and #3 men in charge of emergency preparedness have zero experience in emergency preparedness, do you think we are safer?

    When you look at Michael Chertoff, the head of Homeland Security, a man with little experience in national security, do you feel secure?

    When men who never served in the military and have never seen young men die in battle send our young people off to war, do you think they know how to conduct a war? Do they know what it means to have your legs blown off for a threat that was never there?

    Do you really believe that turning over important government services to private corporations has resulted in better services for the people?

    Why do you hate our federal government so much? You have voted for politicians for the past 25 years whose main goal has been to de-fund the federal government. Do you think that cutting federal programs like FEMA and the Army Corps of Engineers has been good or bad for America? GOOD OR BAD?

    With the nation's debt at an all-time high, do you think tax cuts for the rich are still a good idea? Will you give yours back so hundreds of thousands of homeless in New Orleans can have a home?

    Do you believe in Jesus? Really? Didn't he say that we would be judged by how we treat the least among us? Hurricane Katrina came in and blew off the facade that we were a nation with liberty and justice for all. The wind howled and the water rose and what was revealed was that the poor in America shall be left to suffer and die while the President of the United States fiddles and tells them to eat cake.

    That's not a joke. The day the hurricane hit and the levees broke, Mr. Bush, John McCain and their rich pals were stuffing themselves with cake. A full day after the levees broke (the same levees whose repair funding he had cut), Mr. Bush was playing a guitar some country singer gave him. All this while New Orleans sank under water.

    It would take ANOTHER day before the President would do a flyover in his jumbo jet, peeking out the widow at the misery 2500 feet below him as he flew back to his second home in DC. It would then be TWO MORE DAYS before a trickle of federal aid and troops would arrive. This was no seven minutes in a sitting trance while children read "My Pet Goat" to him. This was FOUR DAYS of doing nothing other than saying "Brownie (FEMA director Michael Brown), you're doing a heck of a job!"

    My Republican friends, does it bother you that we are the laughing stock of the world?

    And on this sacred day of remembrance, do you think we honor or shame those who died on 9/11/01? If we learned nothing and find ourselves today every bit as vulnerable and unprepared as we were on that bright sunny morning, then did the 3,000 die in vain?

    Our vulnerability is not just about dealing with terrorists or natural disasters. We are vulnerable and unsafe because we allow one in eight Americans to live in horrible poverty. We accept an education system where one in six children never graduate and most of those who do can't string a coherent sentence together. The middle class can't pay the mortgage or the hospital bills and 45 million have no health coverage whatsoever.

    Are we safe? Do you really feel safe? You can only move so far out and build so many gated communities before the fruit of what you've sown will be crashing through your walls and demanding retribution. Do you really want to wait until that happens? Or is it your hope that if they are left alone long enough to soil themselves and shoot themselves and drown in the filth that fills the street that maybe the problem will somehow go away?

    I know you know better. You gave the country and the world a man who wasn't up for the job and all he does is hire people who aren't up for the job. You did this to us, to the world, to the people of New Orleans. Please fix it. Bush is yours. And you know, for our peace and safety and security, this has to be fixed. What do you propose?

    I have an idea, and it isn't a horse show.

    Yours,
    Michael Moore
  4. #1164  
    Come to find out this wasn't Robin William's 'Plan', but I really like it.

    Check it out .
  5. #1165  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Come to find out this wasn't Robin William's 'Plan', but I really like it.

    Check it out .
    (A) It's a total, silly fake nobody would believe in anyway, and
    (B) there is not the slightest link to New Orleans/the hurricane.

    Why did you post it here?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  6. #1166  
    OK, you dont like the video, here is another example of what people in the country are thinking:

    "Politics, race and Katrina, lessons of a national shame"

    Sound like the title of a Move0n.org ad? Nope, it is the latest cover story for Newsweek

  7. #1167  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    (A) It's a total, silly fake nobody would believe in anyway, and
    (B) there is not the slightest link to New Orleans/the hurricane.

    Why did you post it here?
    I didn't want to create a new thread. Are you kidding me about having nothing to do with the thread, aren't you the Athiest that earlier in the thread mentioned something about prayer?
  8. #1168  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    I didn't want to create a new thread. Are you kidding me about having nothing to do with the thread, aren't you the Athiest that earlier in the thread mentioned something about prayer?
    Do a search, that point was answered long ago.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  9. #1169  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    OK, you dont like the video, here is another example of what people in the country are thinking:

    "Politics, race and Katrina, lessons of a national shame"

    Sound like the title of a Move0n.org ad? Nope, it is the latest cover story for Newsweek


    Newsweek...oh, yeah. They're not known to work a left wing agenda.
  10. #1170  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Newsweek...oh, yeah. They're not known to work a left wing agenda.
    Yes with George Will writing the opinion page for that issue, how can you conclude anything else?
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    #1171  
    Jack Kelly: No shame
    The federal response to Katrina was not as portrayed
    Sunday, September 11, 2005



    Jason van Steenwyk is a Florida Army National Guardsman who has been mobilized six times for hurricane relief. He notes that:

    "The federal government pretty much met its standard time lines, but the volume of support provided during the 72-96 hour was unprecedented. The federal response here was faster than Hugo, faster than Andrew, faster than Iniki, faster than Francine and Jeanne."


    http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05254/568876.stm
  12. #1172  
    It is funny that you say that Newsweek represents what the "people in the country are thinking".

    "The media “wants Kerry to win” and so “they’re going to portray Kerry and Edwards as being young and dynamic and optimistic” and “there’s going to be this glow about” them, Evan Thomas, the Assistant Managing Editor of Newsweek, admitted on Inside Washington over the weekend."
  13. #1173  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    Yes with George Will writing the opinion page for that issue, how can you conclude anything else?
    It has been years since I've read Newsweek. Will's column was essentially an Op-Ed at the back. Has that changed?
  14. #1174  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl


    Doesnt mention the hundreds of busses that the mayor just let sit rather then use to help with the evacuation.....hmmm
    I read in a news article somewhere that they were used to get people to the superdome and then were parked. Why they didnt use them to get some of them out of the city completely I dont know.
    The value of knowledge is not in its possession, but in its use.
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    #1175  
    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyaki
    I read in a news article somewhere that they were used to get people to the superdome and then were parked. Why they didnt use them to get some of them out of the city completely I dont know.
    Can you cite where you read the bus fleet was used at all (not a blog please). Everything I have read is that the bus fleet was never used for the evacuation.
  16. #1176  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Can you cite where you read the bus fleet was used at all (not a blog please). Everything I have read is that the bus fleet was never used for the evacuation.
    If I can find it again, I sure will.
    The value of knowledge is not in its possession, but in its use.
  17. #1177  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Can you cite where you read the bus fleet was used at all (not a blog please). Everything I have read is that the bus fleet was never used for the evacuation.

    Over the weekend I saw interviews (Meet the press ??) with the mayor where he spoke about not having drivers for the buses -- (that they had already fled with their own families)

    Criticism of N.O. is kind of unfair for several reasons -- unlike Florida, N.O. has less often been a hurricane target and has not therefore experienced previous "dry run" evacuation trials before where problems could have been seen and rectified.

    Though the risk was always there like the sword of Damocles, it had only been a hypothetical one -- and its hard to organize and evacuate a poor, old, and infirm community of more than 100,000 people in hours -- and for the first time. (that the 80% of N.O. with their own cars left, is amazing.)


    The key issue for me has been the question I asked on day one:

    why were not the levees intensely monitored during the 12 hours after Katrina passed ??

    why was not equipment , personnel, and helicopters provisioned to respond pro-actively as water overflow was observed to weaken the levees ??

    In the immediate aftermath of an identified breach, why was not heaven and earth moved to repair the breach before it could become so wide that it would be unrepairable ??



    (BTW – I’m not supposed to come out and play today – so this maybe one of my few “contributions” )
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  18. #1178  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Where, in your mind, was the real peril point, where Germany could have won WWII?

    When I have more time maybe we can do a speculative thread on "inflection points of WW2" -- if you and others are interested ...
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  19. NRG
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    #1179  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    The key issue for me has been the question I asked on day one:

    why were not the levees intensely monitored during the 12 hours after Katrina passed ??
    They were.

    why was not equipment , personnel, and helicopters provisioned to respond pro-actively as water overflow was observed to weaken the levees ??
    They were in a way I think. The heli that was supposed to fill the breach was ordered somewhere else to do evac. To this day I want to know who gave the order.

    In the immediate aftermath of an identified breach, why was not heaven and earth moved to repair the breach before it could become so wide that it would be unrepairable ??
    See answer above.


    (BTW – I’m not supposed to come out and play today – so this maybe one of my few “contributions” )[/QUOTE]
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    #1180  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl


    Doesnt mention the hundreds of busses that the mayor just let sit rather then use to help with the evacuation.....hmmm
    bump.

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