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  1. #881  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    The theory is:

    Global warming => higher sea levels and => stronger hurricanes because of warmer water temperatures.

    I hope this will all be proven wrong, like Rush insists it is. However, if Rush is wrong, then it will be too late to turn this around before an absolute proof of global warming (that satisfies the right wing extremists) is available.
    I had posted somewhere in this OT area of factual data on hurricanes over the last 100 years. This is info from noaa.com and is nothing but facts. Not simple lib talk like clulup saying global warming causes hurricanes, but facts. The fact is, these are not the worst hurricanes ever.
  2. #882  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    The local government people followed their evac plan, and they executed it. Then things got out of control. What I would like to know is who gave the order to go pick people up at a church instead of sandbagging.
    NO THEY DIDN'T! The written plan by the City of NO was to utilize city and school buses to evacuate. Theses buses moved no one.

    Regarding the sandbagging - I would like an answer to that as well. But, if the people had been evacuated, then no loss of life would occur.
  3. NRG
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    #883  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    NO THEY DIDN'T! The written plan by the City of NO was to utilize city and school buses to evacuate. Theses buses moved no one.

    Regarding the sandbagging - I would like an answer to that as well. But, if the people had been evacuated, then no loss of life would occur.
    Just wondering with these buses, who was going to drive them? Where were they going to take them them? Even if they used those buses how long would it take would it take to move 250,000 people with only 100 buses @ 80 people a trip? These are just a few questions as far as the buses are concerned. Let's not forget people with special needs (i.e. venalatiors, wheelchairs, people too sick to move). Also what about the picking these folks up? This bus story is a side track as far as I am concerned.
    Last edited by NRG; 09/07/2005 at 09:28 AM.
  4. #884  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Time will tell, but Mike Brown may eventually be fired over his actions after the levee broke. But for the fn 100th time - in our country, it is the responsibility of the local and state govt to evacuate.
    I guess there is agreement that all levels failed, local, state and federal.

    I don't think that the main problem was the evacuation, or bringing those who couldn't/didn't want to evacuate to the Superdome - that part seems to have worked quite well.

    The really bad stuff was the levees breaking (federal responsibility) and the fact that no help could be brought to the people still in the city for several days (state/federal).
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  5. #885  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    What does Global Warming have to do with a hurricane or levees breaking?
    The point was not that there is a link (or not), I was just speculating that scientific evidence is maybe not taken into consideration well enough in a country where the president calls for teaching "intelligent design"/creationism in biology classes, and large proportions of the population believe that evolution is just some weird and un-christian theory.

    Reality is that which does not go away, even when you don't believe in it and pretend it is not there. Category 4 hurricanes are a reality in NO, statistically, they take place every 65 years on average in NO. The levees were ok for category 3, but not 4 or 5. Science knew it and told everybody so, nobody cared or believed it, as it seems.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  6. #886  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Just wondering with these buses, who was going to drive them? Where were they going to take them them? Even if they used those buses how long would it take would it take to move 250,000 people with only 100 buses @ 80 people a trip? These are just a few questions as far as the buses are concerned. Let's not forget people with special needs (i.e. venalatiors, wheelchairs, people too sick to move). Also what about the picking these folks up? This bus story is a side track as far as I am concerned.
    Bush doesn't write local city plans, the city is responsible. So who is to drive them, I don't know - but I'd like to think they're smart enough to have a plan.

    NRG, who is to blame?
  7. #887  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    The point was not that there is a link (or not), I was just speculating that scientific evidence is maybe not taken into consideration well enough in a country where the president calls for teaching "intelligent design"/creationism in biology classes, and large proportions of the population believe that evolution is just some weird and un-christian theory.

    Reality is that which does not go away, even when you don't believe in it and pretend it is not there. Category 4 hurricanes are a reality in NO, statistically, they take place every 65 years on average in NO. The levees were ok for category 3, but not 4 or 5. Science knew it and told everybody so, nobody cared or believed it, as it seems.
    Post #518 in this thread
  8. #888  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    I had posted somewhere in this OT area of factual data on hurricanes over the last 100 years. This is info from noaa.com and is nothing but facts. Not simple lib talk like clulup saying global warming causes hurricanes, but facts. The fact is, these are not the worst hurricanes ever.
    One has to look at long term (since the industrial revolution) trends, not individual outliars. Any trend line has points above and below it. These may not be worst ever, but is the average/median strength and frequency increasing?

    I don't know. You asked what global warming has to do with this. If you want ABSOLUTE irrefutable proof, then there is no such proof that GW has nothing to do with severity of hurricanes, now or in the future, either...
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  9. NRG
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    #889  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Bush doesn't write local city plans, the city is responsible. So who is to drive them, I don't know - but I'd like to think they're smart enough to have a plan.

    NRG, who is to blame?
    Blame, well let's see I am sure we could produce a laundry list of faults ranging from local all the way to the top of federal. I really believe that it all starts with N.O. not getting the funding they requested for the levees. Then we progressively move down to the local level. Blame? I think we could wrap everyone up, from the president on down to the mayor.
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    #890  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    If we look at this in a simple manner ATM and try not to over analyze it we will see the problem right here.



    The local government people followed their evac plan, and they executed it. Then things got out of control. What I would like to know is who gave the order to go pick people up at a church instead of sandbagging.
    The local evacuation plan was to have the city gov't control the evacuation. They were to utilize the school bus fleet as well as the city bus fleet as per the city of NO disaster guide. They told the local citizens to prepare for at leas 5 days of survival on their own if they chose not to evacuate. What I would like to know is why did the city abandon their own people and fail to follow the very quidelines they printed and distributed?
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    #891  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Just wondering with these buses, who was going to drive them? Where were they going to take them them? Even if they used those buses how long would it take would it take to move 250,000 people with only 100 buses @ 80 people a trip? These are just a few questions as far as the buses are concerned. Let's not forget people with special needs (i.e. venalatiors, wheelchairs, people too sick to move). Also what about the picking these folks up? This bus story is a side track as far as I am concerned.
    How can the cities disaster plan be a side track? This is what the city said would be accomplished, this is what they promised these people. Why did'nt the city or the state order a mandatory evacuation when reccomended by the federal gov't? Why did the governor say it is complicated I need to think about it for 24 hours before I decide to evacuate?

    I agree if the blackhawks were to assist with sandbagging why were they not there.
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    #892  
    Cardio: We can go tit for tat on the small stuff. But the plain simple fact is the government failed the people of N.O. on all levels, local, state, federal. From the evac, sandbagging, and relief efforts.
  13. #893  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    I really don't see why you post this here. I did not say the catastrophe in NO happened because the hurricanes got STRONGER. According to this map, a Category 4 hurricane is to be expected once every 65 years in the region of NO, so it is not extremely rare based on past experiences. So the levees breaking was not just terribly bad luck or a totally unexpected event, it was clear it would happen.

    Why nobody cared or acted accordingly is what I am wondering about. Why this total neglect of scientific data?

    Why not invest US$ 2billion to make the levees secure for categroy 4 and parts of Category 5, thus taking only a risk of once every 170 years or less, instead of paying tens of billions of dollars for rebuilding NO, losing tens of millions of days of work, risk thousands killed, etc.?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  14. #894  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I really don't see why you post this here. I did not say the catastrophe in NO happened because the hurricanes got STRONGER. According to this map, a Category 4 hurricane is to be expected once every 65 years in the region of NO, so it is not extremely rare based on past experiences. So the levees breaking was not just terribly bad luck or a totally unexpected event, it was clear it would happen.

    Why nobody cared or acted accordingly is what I am wondering about. Why this total neglect of scientific data?

    Why not invest US$ 2billion to make the levees secure for categroy 4 and parts of Category 5, thus taking only a risk of once every 170 years or less, instead of paying tens of billions of dollars for rebuilding NO, losing tens of millions of days of work, risk thousands killed, etc.?
    I wish the levee was built-up prior to the storm too. To spend billions on the levee prior would of been looked at as 'pork belly' spending by politicians. Hell, the levee was still not completed from the original plan 40 years ago. Things don't get done till a disaster happens.
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    #895  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Cardio: We can go tit for tat on the small stuff. But the plain simple fact is the government failed the people of N.O. on all levels, local, state, federal. From the evac, sandbagging, and relief efforts.
    That is what I have been saying all along. All are to blame, not just the federal gov't. And as unfortunate as it is, a lot of the individuals directly impacted are to blame as well. I know you also know all to well that everytime a hurrican approaches and an evacuation is ordered or suggested people think it is an excuse for a party. People have been lulled into a false sense of security over the years because we have not had a devastating storm like this one in the area since Hurricane Camile hit Gulfport MS. Even with the city in condition it is in now there had to be an order given to do a forced mandatory evacuation. I think that in itself speaks volumes.
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    #896  
    These are the things I find the most infuriating with this admin, all look no substance!!!!

    Source: Salt Lake Tribune

    Frustrated: Fire crews to hand out fliers for FEMA
    By Lisa Rosetta
    The Salt Lake Tribune

    ATLANTA - Not long after some 1,000 firefighters sat down for eight hours of training, the whispering began: "What are we doing here?"
    As New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin pleaded on national television for firefighters - his own are exhausted after working around the clock for a week - a battalion of highly trained men and women sat idle Sunday in a muggy Sheraton Hotel conference room in Atlanta.
    Many of the firefighters, assembled from Utah and throughout the United States by the Federal Emergency Management Agency, thought they were going to be deployed as emergency workers.
    Instead, they have learned they are going to be community-relations officers for FEMA, shuffled throughout the Gulf Coast region to disseminate fliers and a phone number: 1-800-621-FEMA.

    -snip-

    "They've got people here who are search-and-rescue certified, paramedics, haz-mat certified," said a Texas firefighter. "We're sitting in here having a sexual-harassment class while there are still [victims] in Louisiana who haven't been contacted yet."
    The firefighter, who has encouraged his superiors back home not to send any more volunteers for now, declined to give his name because FEMA has warned them not to talk to reporters.

    -snip-

    But as specific orders began arriving to the firefighters in Atlanta, a team of 50 Monday morning quickly was ushered onto a flight headed for Louisiana. The crew's first assignment: to stand beside President Bush as he tours devastated areas.
  17. #897  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    These are the things I find the most infuriating with this admin, all look no substance!!!!
    So what - I'm glad you know that the blame starts at the local and state level.
  18. NRG
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    #898  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    So what - I'm glad you know that the blame starts at the local and state level.
    This is not about blame, this is about how it is all about photo-ops.
  19. #899  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    This is not about blame, this is about how it is all about photo-ops.
    Huh, I thought we were all more concerned about the poor people and who is out to kill them.

    Politicians, both sides of the aisle have photo ops. You just hate Bush, so when you find a story like this you think this is the smoking gun. It's no big deal.
  20. #900  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    I wish the levee was built-up prior to the storm too. To spend billions on the levee prior would of been looked at as 'pork belly' spending by politicians. Hell, the levee was still not completed from the original plan 40 years ago. Things don't get done till a disaster happens.
    We typically don't spend large amounts of resources on threats we haven't experienced (regardless of their scientific certainty). Case in point: the New Madrid fault is guaranteed to produce an earthquake of magnitude 7 or higher (Source). It's just a matter of time. This kind of quake would likely destroy St. Louis, Memphis and many other cities in the region. How much is being spent on infrastructure improvements and preparedness? I'm guessing close to $0.

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