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  1. #841  
    Another interesting read: LINK
    While Chertoff said the levee breach that flooded New Orleans "exceeded the foresight of planners," Max Mayfield, director of the National Hurricane Center, said Brown and other top federal officials were briefed as much as 32 hours in advance of landfall that Hurricane Katrina's storm surge was likely to overtop levees and cause catastrophic flooding.

    "They knew that this one was different," Mayfield said yesterday. "I don't think Mike Brown or anyone else in FEMA could have any reason to have any problem with our calls. . . . They were told. . . . We said the levees could be topped."
    The FEMA director was personally briefed by the head of the Natl Hurricane Ctr about how serious Katrina was. Firing would seem to be too good for Mike Brown. The question of why he would have ever been appointed in the first place is also a legitimate one, obviously.
  2. #842  
    Here is another one about them turning away help. Its on a blog, but its naming the organization that tried to help, should be easy enough to verify by contacting them directly.

    http://www.jabberwonk.com/flinker.cfm?cliid=13obr8

    State of Art Mobile Hospital from UNC Turned Away
    by Cal45
    Mon Sep 5th, 2005 at 14:11:22 PDT
    "We have tried so hard to do the right thing. It took us 30 hours to get here," said one of the frustrated surgeons, Dr. Preston "Chip" Rich of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. That government officials can't straighten out the mess and get them assigned to a relief effort now that they're just a few miles away "is just mind-boggling," he said in a phone interview.

    Next door in Mississippi, the North Carolina mobile hospital waiting to help also offered impressive state-of-the-art medical care.

    It was developed with millions of tax dollars through the Office of Homeland Security after 9-11. With capacity for 113 beds, it is designed to handle disasters and mass casualties.

    Cal45's diary :: ::
    Equipment includes ultrasound, digital radiology, satellite Internet, and a full pharmacy, enabling doctors to do most types of surgery in the field, including open-chest and abdominal operations

    It travels in a convoy that includes two 53-foot trailers, which on Sunday afternoon was parked on a gravel lot 70 miles north of New Orleans because Louisiana officials for several days would not let them deploy to the flooded city, Rich said.

    An e-mail reply told him to watch CNN that night where HHS Secretary Leavitt was to announce a Web address for doctors to enter their names in a database. "How crazy is that?" he complained in an e-mail to his daughter. Plans to use the facility and its 100 health professionals were hatched days before Hurricane Katrina devastated the Gulf Coast, doctors in the caravan said.

    On the Net:

    Mobile hospital: http://www.carolinasmed-1.org/index.cfm
    The value of knowledge is not in its possession, but in its use.
  3. #843  
    Here is another one, about firefighters. http://www.jabberwonk.com/flinker.cfm?cliid=13obr8

    Why FEMA turned away help
    by Ducktape
    Mon Sep 5th, 2005 at 07:55:38 PDT
    For days after the disaster, help and volunteers of all sorts headed for New Orleans with relief supplies and expertise, only to be stopped and turned away by FEMA.

    Last night, one of my friends joined our regular Sunday chat. He had just come home from New Orleans with his group of volunteer firefighters from Houston, after they had waited outside New Orleans for since Tuesday for FEMA to let them help in New Orleans, or use them somewhere else in the stricken region.

    FEMA's "reason" -- they wouldn't let anyone in "until the National Guard has secured the city." The details of his experience are below the fold.

    Ducktape's diary :: ::
    Bill is a member of a volunteer firefighter team in the Houston area. He and his team have a lot of experience helping after hurricanes. And they also have special expertise -- a lot of them work for a living on oil infrastructure and repairs. Bill is a professional logistics expert whose assignments have included getting a client's tsunami-flattened distribution facility back operating within a couple of weeks, and pre-invasion logistics work in Kuwait.

    On Monday night, his group assembled their rescue equipment and tools, and packed them into their boats along with all the emergency supplies they could carry. By Tuesday morning, they were almost to New Orleans. "We were stopped at gunpoint by FEMA and told to turn back," he told me. When I asked, he clarified that they did not point the guns at them, but they were carrying and displaying their weapons.

    FEMA told him that no one was allowed to enter the city to help "until it was secured by the National Guard." The Houston team asked if they could wait. The FEMA staff told them yes, but that they shouldn't expect anything to change.

    So they set up camp in the parking area where they had been stopped, and they waited. By Thursday night, when they were still waiting in the same place, some of the team returned to Houston. The rest decided to wait longer. And still nothing changed, so the remaining team members returned to Houston on Saturday night.

    Needless to say, Bill is livid about this. I asked him why they had not been sent to some of the other communities in the hurricane-stricken area where security was not as much of an issue.

    "We asked," he told me, "but they said that our expertise was more needed in the New Orleans area." The ****ing catch-22 -- they were needed in New Orleans, so they weren't allowed to go elsewhere, but they weren't allowed to go into New Orleans, so the upshot was that they did nothing except sit and wait, and then go home in frustration.

    What had him frosted more than anything else is that they also have very specific expertise, as individual professionals as well as a firefighter team, in dealing with damage to oil infrastructure in the aftermath of a natural disaster. "We've been doing this more than 10 years," he told me. "We are not amateurs, and we have an enormous amount of experience with areas which have been hit by hurricanes."

    "A lot of the damaged oil facilities aren't even in the city of New Orleans itself," he told me, "so they weren't in an area that you would think would have looters or security problems that were different from any hurricane we've worked in. We're used to arriving and immediately going to work."

    They didn't just sit and wait -- they kept going back to the FEMA people who were holding them up and making suggestions about how and where they could be useful. But FEMA had no interest in listening, and the line never changed. "You can wait if you wish, but don't expect any change anytime soon. Or you can go home."

    You know all that "help is on the way" BS that was spouted? A lot of it wasn't just "on the way" -- it was already there, but blocked from doing anything because of FEMA.

    We've heard so much of this over this past week, of help and supplies arriving and not being allowed in, of the USS Bataan cruising off the city with helicopters, medical facilities, and supplies, but doing nothing because they hadn't been asked to help.

    I thought my outrage meter was already off the dial, but I discovered it had new levels when I heard the first-hand account from a friend who had left work for a week to bring specific expertise to the disaster, and who was among the thousands of such people blocked by FEMA and their incompetent bureaucracy from doing anything at all.
    The value of knowledge is not in its possession, but in its use.
  4. #844  
    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyaki
    Here is another one about them turning away help. Its on a blog, but its naming the organization that tried to help, should be easy enough to verify by contacting them directly.
    I'll be waiting for that confirmation... Until then keep an eye on UNC's press release website: http://news.mc.duke.edu/news/index.php
    Nothing there yet about this.
    It travels in a convoy that includes two 53-foot trailers, which on Sunday afternoon was parked on a gravel lot 70 miles north of New Orleans because Louisiana officials for several days would not let them deploy to the flooded city, Rich said.
    I can't help but notice that nearly every one of these stories includes local officials turning away help.
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    #845  
    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyaki
    Here is another one, about firefighters. http://www.jabberwonk.com/flinker.cfm?cliid=13obr8

    Why FEMA turned away help
    by Ducktape
    Mon Sep 5th, 2005 at 07:55:38 PDT
    For days after the disaster, help and volunteers of all sorts headed for New Orleans with relief supplies and expertise, only to be stopped and turned away by FEMA.

    Last night, one of my friends joined our regular Sunday chat. He had just come home from New Orleans with his group of volunteer firefighters from Houston, after they had waited outside New Orleans for since Tuesday for FEMA to let them help in New Orleans, or use them somewhere else in the stricken region.

    FEMA's "reason" -- they wouldn't let anyone in "until the National Guard has secured the city." The details of his experience are below the fold.

    Ducktape's diary :: ::
    Bill is a member of a volunteer firefighter team in the Houston area. He and his team have a lot of experience helping after hurricanes. And they also have special expertise -- a lot of them work for a living on oil infrastructure and repairs. Bill is a professional logistics expert whose assignments have included getting a client's tsunami-flattened distribution facility back operating within a couple of weeks, and pre-invasion logistics work in Kuwait.

    On Monday night, his group assembled their rescue equipment and tools, and packed them into their boats along with all the emergency supplies they could carry. By Tuesday morning, they were almost to New Orleans. "We were stopped at gunpoint by FEMA and told to turn back," he told me. When I asked, he clarified that they did not point the guns at them, but they were carrying and displaying their weapons.

    FEMA told him that no one was allowed to enter the city to help "until it was secured by the National Guard." The Houston team asked if they could wait. The FEMA staff told them yes, but that they shouldn't expect anything to change.

    So they set up camp in the parking area where they had been stopped, and they waited. By Thursday night, when they were still waiting in the same place, some of the team returned to Houston. The rest decided to wait longer. And still nothing changed, so the remaining team members returned to Houston on Saturday night.

    Needless to say, Bill is livid about this. I asked him why they had not been sent to some of the other communities in the hurricane-stricken area where security was not as much of an issue.

    "We asked," he told me, "but they said that our expertise was more needed in the New Orleans area." The ****ing catch-22 -- they were needed in New Orleans, so they weren't allowed to go elsewhere, but they weren't allowed to go into New Orleans, so the upshot was that they did nothing except sit and wait, and then go home in frustration.

    What had him frosted more than anything else is that they also have very specific expertise, as individual professionals as well as a firefighter team, in dealing with damage to oil infrastructure in the aftermath of a natural disaster. "We've been doing this more than 10 years," he told me. "We are not amateurs, and we have an enormous amount of experience with areas which have been hit by hurricanes."

    "A lot of the damaged oil facilities aren't even in the city of New Orleans itself," he told me, "so they weren't in an area that you would think would have looters or security problems that were different from any hurricane we've worked in. We're used to arriving and immediately going to work."

    They didn't just sit and wait -- they kept going back to the FEMA people who were holding them up and making suggestions about how and where they could be useful. But FEMA had no interest in listening, and the line never changed. "You can wait if you wish, but don't expect any change anytime soon. Or you can go home."

    You know all that "help is on the way" BS that was spouted? A lot of it wasn't just "on the way" -- it was already there, but blocked from doing anything because of FEMA.

    We've heard so much of this over this past week, of help and supplies arriving and not being allowed in, of the USS Bataan cruising off the city with helicopters, medical facilities, and supplies, but doing nothing because they hadn't been asked to help.

    I thought my outrage meter was already off the dial, but I discovered it had new levels when I heard the first-hand account from a friend who had left work for a week to bring specific expertise to the disaster, and who was among the thousands of such people blocked by FEMA and their incompetent bureaucracy from doing anything at all.
    These are stories circulating on blogs. Do not put a lot of credibility to these type stories. Remember all the internet stories that start or have the statement "I have a friend" (heard a middle eastern man tell someone not to drink pepsi, not to fly on this date, etc) the actual news reports should be cited not blogs.
  6. #846  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    These are stories circulating on blogs. Do not put a lot of credibility to these type stories. Remember all the internet stories that start or have the statement "I have a friend" (heard a middle eastern man tell someone not to drink pepsi, not to fly on this date, etc) the actual news reports should be cited not blogs.
    Amen!
  7. #847  
    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyaki
    Here is another one, about firefighters. http://www.jabberwonk.com/flinker.cfm?cliid=13obr8...By Tuesday morning, they were almost to New Orleans. "We were stopped at gunpoint by FEMA and told to turn back," he told me. When I asked, he clarified that they did not point the guns at them, but they were carrying and displaying their weapons. ...
    FEMA carries guns? Since when?

    Relevant quote: "FEMA said its agents are never armed."

    http://www.wdsu.com/news/4932913/detail.html
  8. #848  
    "A few truths, for those who have ears and eyes and care to know the truth:

    1.) The hurricane that hit New Orleans and Mississippi and Alabama was an astonishing tragedy. The suffering and loss of life and peace of mind of the residents of those areas is acutely horrifying.

    2.) George Bush did not cause the hurricane. Hurricanes have been happening for eons. George Bush did not create them or unleash this one.

    3.) George Bush did not make this one worse than others. There have been far worse hurricanes than this before George Bush was born."

    <-snip->http://www.snopes.com/politics/katrina/benstein.asp
  9. #849  
    Man Charged With Shooting at Helicopter

    http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/09/06/D8CEVR5O3.html

    Rescuers are still being shot at as recently as yesterday...
  10. #850  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Man Charged With Shooting at Helicopter

    http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/09/06/D8CEVR5O3.html

    Rescuers are still being shot at as recently as yesterday...
    Perhaps. But it is not the rescuers who are reporting it or complaining about it. It is FEMA and their lackies, Wildlife and Fisheries. John Wayne does not worry about snipers. Resuers do not demand or even expect guarantees. Stop the BS.
  11. #851  
    Quote Originally Posted by KRamsauer
    "A few truths, for those who have ears and eyes and care to know the truth: ........
    3.) George Bush did not make this one worse than others. There have been far worse hurricanes than this before George Bush was born."........

    <-snip->http://www.snopes.com/politics/katrina/benstein.asp
    This is not about George W. Bush. Get over it. Stop defending him and start asking yourself what the eff is going on.
  12. #852  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    Perhaps. But it is not the rescuers who are reporting it or complaining about it. It is FEMA and their lackies, Wildlife and Fisheries. John Wayne does not worry about snipers. Resuers do not demand or even expect guarantees. Stop the BS.
    I'm not sure I follow the logic. Pointing out the fact there are criminals there depraved enough to try and kill the very people who've come to help them is BS? Or complaining? Who's asking for guarantees? The rescuers should be there despite the danger. They deserve all the credit in the world for doing it.
  13. #853  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    This is not about George W. Bush. Get over it. Stop defending him and start asking yourself what the eff is going on.
    Incidentally, if you think this is about George W. Bush, you have already lost. The American people have already decided that there are few heroes here. This is Katriina, not 9/11. New York is still there; New Orleans is still under water, in flames, populated only by the starving, the thirsty, and the desparately frightened.

    [My niece rescued clothes and papers from her house. Her dogs are dead. The house will be razed. George Bush did not cause it and could not have prevented it. Her father's house and her brother's house are okay. George Bush is not responsible for that either.]
    Last edited by whmurray; 09/06/2005 at 09:24 PM.
  14. #854  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    I'm not sure I follow the logic. Pointing out the fact there are criminals there depraved enough to try and kill the very people who've come to help them is BS? Or complaining? Who's asking for guarantees? The rescuers should be there despite the danger. They deserve all the credit in the world for doing it.
    You do indeed follow the logic. You follow it all too well. Evil has been done here. You rely upon the fact that the evil is so terrible that no one dare name it. Well, you have gone too far. Evil has been done in the name of "zero tolerance for looters." It has been done in the name of "protecting rescuers from snipers." It has been done in the name of protection that they have not asked for, did not expect, and did not want. You think that the fact that both the Governor and POTUS have been complicit in it makes it impossible for anyone to name it. Well you are wrong. The evil is damnable and it has been named.
  15. #855  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Here's a link to USS Bataan's website. They were on the job Tuesday, the day after the storm.
    Unlike the Bataan, your link seems to be non-operational.

    http://www.bataan.navy.mil/

    It's a very interesting read... the crew have been very busy all week long. In fact, if we're looking for heroes, I'd nominate them. Apparently they aren't using the onboard medical facilities because they can do more faster by getting their personnel on the ground in N.O. rather than working from the safety of their ship.
  16. #856  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Unlike the Bataan, your link seems to be non-operational.

    http://www.bataan.navy.mil/

    It's a very interesting read... the crew have been very busy all week long. In fact, if we're looking for heroes, I'd nominate them. Apparently they aren't using the onboard medical facilities because they can do more faster by getting their personnel on the ground in N.O. rather than working from the safety of their ship.
    Sir, are you an apologist?
  17. #857  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    You do indeed follow the logic. You follow it all too well. Evil has been done here. You rely upon the fact that the evil is so terrible that no one dare name it. Well, you have gone too far. Evil has been done in the name of "zero tolerance for looters." It has been done in the name of "protecting rescuers from snipers." It has been done in the name of protection that they have not asked for, did not expect, and did not want. You think that the fact that both the Governor and POTUS have been complicit in it makes it impossible for anyone to name it. Well you are wrong. The evil is damnable and it has been named.
    I'm sorry... now you've really lost me.
  18. #858  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    I'm sorry... now you've really lost me.
    Have I, indeed? Perhaps you are an innocent. Perhaps you are so innocent that you do not know evil when you see it. That would be nice. It would be something nice in all this wickedness.
    Last edited by whmurray; 09/06/2005 at 10:15 PM.
  19. #859  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    I'm sorry... now you've really lost me.
    Perhaps someone will explain it for me. Perhaps someone will explain it for you. That would be nice.
  20. #860  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    Sir, are you an apologist?
    Frankly there's been an awful lot of rumor and innuendo spread here both directly and indirectly by linking to very questionable sources. I've been doing a lot of posting here today to try and add information and shed light on what exactly has been going on (as always, based on info I've been able to find in reliable media sources). An earlier poster charged that "The USS Battaan's help was turned away from New Orleans at the very moment its need was for it was greatest." Though the poster very well might not have known it at the time, we now can see this was not true.

    I will point out that earlier today I did say that firing was too good for the FEMA director, but if pointing out ommissions or downright falsehoods makes me an apologist in your eyes, well you can believe whatever you choose.

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