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  1. #821  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    BARYE, that is great planning if we know for sure the storm would stay on projected course. What if somone had taken those steps (to include the Mayor of NO starting to evacaute the under privalged with that large bus fleet we saw sitting in the lake) and the storm turned right and struck Destin Florida, or hit the Texas coast instead. There have been several major storms projected to hit NO right up to less than 12 hours of landfall that turned and hit in an enitrely different area. It is easy to say we should have done XYZ, but we did not, we includes the residents, the city officials, the parish officials, the state officials, the national officials.
    Cardio -- yes it would have been desirable to have evacuated EVERYONE -- to have used those buses. 80 % left -- which for most major urban evacuations done in about 24hours -- is very good.

    That N.O. has so many old, poor, and infirm should have been better appreciated -- but it was apparently always expected that lots of people would have to get to the Superdome for shelter. (a terrible plan -- and many had warned that it was stupid years before.)

    The point that I most wanted to make in that post was that on Saturday -- that MOST PROBABLE SCENARIO was that a CATEGORY 5 hurricane would hit New Orleans.

    And it was WELL KNOWN that its levees could not survive such a storm (having been built only for a Category 3)

    That water would continue to flow and be gathered in the rivers and lakes for days after such a massive storm is obvious to anyone who's been alive long enough to have experienced a big thunderstorm.

    Insufficent resources were available.

    Apparently FEMA did not learn about the levee breech until it was written about in web blogs !!!

    Why helicopters and other resources were not dedicated to comprehensibly monitoring the levees is beyond negligent incompetence -- and is incomprehensible to me.

    Could the levees been saved ??? It was the question I asked on day one.
    Last edited by BARYE; 09/06/2005 at 01:32 PM. Reason: added first 2 paragraphs
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  2. #822  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    BARYE, that is great planning if we know for sure the storm would stay on projected course. What if somone had taken those steps (to include the Mayor of NO starting to evacaute the under privalged with that large bus fleet we saw sitting in the lake) and the storm turned right and struck Destin Florida, or hit the Texas coast instead. There have been several major storms projected to hit NO right up to less than 12 hours of landfall that turned and hit in an enitrely different area. It is easy to say we should have done XYZ, but we did not, we includes the residents, the city officials, the parish officials, the state officials, the national officials.
    Planning is harder than it looks. particularly without benefit of hind-sight.
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    #823  
    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyaki
    I don't know if they intentionally withheld relief or not. They certainly didnt encourage it: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/9/3/171718/0826

    Just to give you a sense of just how badly FEMA has f*cked up.
    Posted by Clark Warner on September 3, 2005 - 2:23pm.
    This is beyond my comprehension and after spending two frustrating days trying to just get someone to let us help we've FINNALLY been told we can conduct "renegade" boat rescues via the just concluded press conference that Gov. Blanco just held.

    Why is this JUST NOW being allowed? Well let's start from the very beginning.

    On Wednesday morning a group of approximately 1,000 citizens pulling 500 boats left the Acadiana Mall in Lafayette in the early morning and headed to New Orleans with a police escort from the Jefferson Parish Sheriff's Department. The flotillia of trucks pulling boats stretched over FIVE miles. This citizen rescue group was organized by La. State Senator, Nick Gautreaux from Vermilion Parish. The group was comprised of experienced boaters, licensed fishermen and hunters, people who have spent their entire adult life and teenage years on the waterways of Louisiana.


    The State Police waved the flotillia of trucks/boats through the barricades in LaPlace and we sped into New Orleans via I-10 until past the airport and near the Clearview exit. At that time we were stopped by agents of the FEMA controlled La. Dept. of Wildlife & Fisheries.

    A young DWF agent strolled through the boats and told approximately half of the citizens that their boats were too large because the water had dropped during the night and that they should turn around and go home.

    They were pulling a large (24ft) shallow draft aluminum boat that can safely carry 12 passengers and had ramp access which would allow the elderly and infirm to have easier access to the boat. They then politely informed the DWF agent that the local and national media had consistently reported that the water level had risen during the night which contradicted his statement to them that the water was dropping and no boat over 16ft. in length would be allowed to participate in rescue operations.

    They then specifically asked the DWF agent that they (and other citizens in the flotillia) be allowed to go to the hospitals and help evacuate the sick and the doctors and nurses stranded there. They offered to bring these people back to Lafayette, in our own vehicles, in order to ensure that they received proper and prompt medical care.

    The DWF agent did not want to hear this and ordered them home -- ALL FIVE HUNDRED BOATS. They complied with the DWF agent's orders, turned around and headed back to Lafayette along with half of the flotillia. However, two friends were pulling a smaller 15ft alumaweld with a 25 hp. The DWF agents let them through to proceed to the rescue operation launch site.

    They were allowed to drive to the launch site where the FEMA controlled La. Dept. of Wildlife and Fisheries were launching their rescue operations (via boat). They reported to me that there were over 200 DWF agents just standing around and doing nothing. They were kept there for approximately 3 hours. During that time they observed a large number of DWF agents doing absolutely nothing. Why? Because FEMA would n ot let them HELP! After three hours had passed they were told that they were not needed and should go home. They complied with the DWF's orders and turned around and went home to Lafayette.

    Watching CNN later that night, there was a telephone interview with a Nurse trapped in Charity Hospital in New Orleans. She said that there were over 1,000 people trapped inside of the hospital and that the doctors and nurses had zero medical supplies, no diesel to run the generators and that only three people had been rescued from the hospital since the Hurricane hit!

    I can't come up with one logical reason why the DWF sent this large group of 500 boats/1000 men home when we surely could have rescued most, if not all, of the people trapped in Charity Hospital. Further, we had the means to immediately transport these people to hospitals in Southwest Louisiana.

    On Tuesday afternoon, August 30, Jefferson Parish Sheriff Harry Lee asked for all citizens with boats to come to the aid of Jefferson Parish. A short time later Dwight Landreneau, the head of the La. Depart. of Wildlife and Fisheries, got on television and remarked that his agency had things under control and citizen help was not needed. Apparently, Sheriff Lee did not agree with that assessment and had one of his deputies provide the Lafayette flotillia with an escort into Jefferson Parish.

    Sheriff Lee and Senator Gautreaux - 1000 of Louisiana's citizens responded to the public's pleas for help. They were prevented from helping by Dwight Landreneau's agency, the Department of Wildlife and Fisheries which had been taken over by FEMA. When I learned that Charity Hospital has not been evacuated and that no one has been there to attempt a rescue, I became angry.

    It was because of this that my friend and I have been trying launch boats both yesterday and today but to no avail. It looks like FINALLY the Governor has just said SCREW FEMA, get those boats in the water and help save my citizens.

    So I think we'll be in the water tomorrow to help but for now I'm immensely frustrated.

    If there is anyone on the CCN that is in the Baton Rouge area we are meeting today at the LA State Dem Party HQ at 2pm CST to game out tomorrow.


    http://securingamerica.com/ccn/node/357#comment-6515
    LA State employees turning away the boats. Notice how all the roadblocks were state employess (Department of fish and wildlife), all those state employees standing around doing nothing. Yet instead of saying let's get these people out and worry about consequences later they all stand around and say someone somewhere said something about not going in yet. It is atrocious that the people standing there did not let the boaters in (if they felt it was safe). Everyone should stop playing the blame game. If you control the check point and stop a rescue you accept the blame.
  4. #824  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    LA State employees turning away the boats. Notice how all the roadblocks were state employess (Department of fish and wildlife), all those state employees standing around doing nothing. Yet instead of saying let's get these people out and worry about consequences later they all stand around and say someone somewhere said something about not going in yet. It is atrocious that the people standing there did not let the boaters in (if they felt it was safe). Everyone should stop playing the blame game. If you control the check point and stop a rescue you accept the blame.

    FEMA was aggressively asserting its authority

    we can all speculate as to the motive --

    you don't probably want to hear my theory: That the political crony running FEMA had as his first concern taking credit for anything being done on behalf of Katrina's victims -- I can't think of any other reason why they would have done what they did:


    1. 500 volunteers attempted to use 1000 shallow draft long boats to rescue survivors, but were turned back by FEMA

    2. Midwest bottlers attempted to donate tons of bottled water -- but FEMA turned them away.

    3. Walmart attempted to deliver tons of bottled water, FEMA turned them away.

    4. U.S. Forest Service had water-tanker aircraft available to help douse the fires raging on our river front, but FEMA did not accept the aid.

    5. When Amtrak offered trains to evacuate significant numbers of victims -- far more efficiently than buses -- FEMA again dragged its feet.

    6. The USS Battaan's help was turned away from New Orleans at the very moment the need was for it was greatest.
    Last edited by BARYE; 09/06/2005 at 02:38 PM.
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    #825  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Cardio -- yes it would have been desirable to have evacuated EVERYONE -- to have used those buses. 80 % left -- which for most major urban evacuations done in about 24hours -- is very good.

    That N.O. has so many old, poor, and infirm should have been better appreciated -- but it was apparently always expected that lots of people would have to get to the Superdome for shelter. (a terrible plan -- and many had warned that it was stupid years before.)

    The point that I most wanted to make in that post was that on Saturday -- that MOST PROBABLE SCENARIO was that a CATEGORY 5 hurricane would hit New Orleans.

    And it was WELL KNOWN that its levees could not survive such a storm (having been built only for a Category 3)

    That water would continue to flow and be gathered in the rivers and lakes for days after such a massive storm is obvious to anyone who's been alive long enough to have experienced a big thunderstorm.

    Insufficent resources were available.

    Apparently FEMA did not learn about the levee breech until it was written about in web blogs !!!

    Why helicopters and other resources were not dedicated to comprehensibly monitoring the levees is beyond negligent incompetence -- and is incomprehensible to me.

    Could the levees been saved ??? It was the question I asked on day one.
    Understood, I was away this weekend and did not read all posts before replying to yours. I am beginning to see more MSM focusing on what local officials failed to do prior to the storm, yet some still jump staight to the feds to lay the blame. I still have not heard an explanation from any local official on failur to use the available bus transportation to move the aged, sick, poor and infants out of the city.
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    #826  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    FEMA was aggressively asserting its authority

    we can all speculate as to the motive --

    you don't probably want to hear my theory: That the political crony running FEMA had as his first concern taking credit for anything being done on behalf of Katrina's victims -- I can't think of any other reason why they would have done what they did:


    1. 500 volunteers attempted to use 1000 shallow draft long boats to rescue survivors, but were turned back by FEMA

    2. Midwest bottlers attempted to donate tons of bottled water -- but FEMA turned them away.

    3. Walmart attempted to deliver tons of bottled water, FEMA turned them away.

    4. U.S. Forest Service had water-tanker aircraft available to help douse the fires raging on our river front, but FEMA did not accept the aid.

    5. When Amtrak offered trains to evacuate significant numbers of victims -- far more efficiently than buses -- FEMA again dragged its feet.

    6. The USS Battaan's help was turned away from New Orleans at the very moment its need was for it was greatest.
    I am not defending FEMA, just pointing out that I really doubt that FEMA agents were standing there with drawn weapons preventing the state employees from taking action. Whoever is on the scene has the responsibility to take action, do something even if it is not the best thing at the time don't just stand around doing nothing.
  7. #827  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    ...many of the events that I mentioned above have multiple sources associated with them, and come from very credible media -- like the Chicago Tribune's story about how the helicopter carrier Battaan went unused though it was desperately needed, and enthusiastically available.
    I look forward to updates to this thread in the hope that links will be posted to just such credible information resources. I also look forward to hearing an explaination from someone in govt as to why the Battaan wasn't utilized earlier.
    Its a little ironic that the refuting of those often repeated myths about those horrific events had to come from a foriegn paper.
    Heh. No kidding.
    When they themselves could easily drive into New Orleans, get resupplied with water and food, and see buses sitting parked and unused -- it was hard to repeat the lies coming from junior's FEMA that it was impossible to bring into N.O. the resources to rescue people.
    It's frankly a bit silly to say based upon the entry of small teams of 10 or fewer journalists that teams of thousands of rescuers could also have gotten in, been kept supplied, and gotten 10s of thousands out in the same timeframe.
    ...to speak out about the lies coming from this white house -- lies that they have for a very long time just cowardly repeated lest they somehow endanger their own careers.
    Lies are deliberate tellings of untruths. What lies have we been told?
    whmurray --the journalists who put their comfort and safety on the line daily to bring the world the truth of the suffering that they themselves observed
    Agreed!
    ...and who by confronting the lies forced this administration to begin to actually do something to help people
    I've seen no evidence that help got to N.O. any sooner because of any reporting done on the ground. I assume you're not implying no help would have been sent were it not for the news media. In fact, I've heard radio news reports that the response has been strengthened at the expense of outlying areas like Slidell, LA which have yet to see any help.
  8. #828  
    Here's the proof you libs need that Bush feels superior to the poor. his momma, Barbara Bush says 'relocation working very well for poor'.

    Seriously, what a moron comment. I think what she meant is the meager means they come from with limited food and resources are being provided in abundance in the Astrodome and other well equiped shelters.
  9. #829  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    I can't think of any other reason why they would have done what they did:


    1. 500 volunteers attempted to use 1000 shallow draft long boats to rescue survivors, but were turned back by FEMA

    2. Midwest bottlers attempted to donate tons of bottled water -- but FEMA turned them away.

    3. Walmart attempted to deliver tons of bottled water, FEMA turned them away.

    4. U.S. Forest Service had water-tanker aircraft available to help douse the fires raging on our river front, but FEMA did not accept the aid.

    5. When Amtrak offered trains to evacuate significant numbers of victims -- far more efficiently than buses -- FEMA again dragged its feet.

    6. The USS Battaan's help was turned away from New Orleans at the very moment its need was for it was greatest.
    I hate to keep harping on this, but AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK $only$ $one$ $of$ $those$ $6$ $items$ $has$ $been$ $reported$ $by$ $a$ $credible$ $source$ (#$6$). $Anti$-$Bush$ $weblogs$ $don$'$t$ $count$, $no$ $matter$ $how$ $many$ $of$ $them$ $repeat$ $these$ $things$. $I$'$m$ $not$ $saying$ $these$ $things$ $did$ $or$ $did$ $not$ $happen$... $all$ $I$'$m$ $saying$ $is$ $that$ $no$ $one$ $should$ $trust$ $those$ $obviously$ $biased$ $sources$ $without$ $confirmation$ $elsewhere$. $I$'$ve$ $seen$ $plenty$ $of$ $contrary$ $info$ $on$ $conservative$ $weblogs$, $but$ $I$'$ve$ $tried$ $very$ $hard$ $to$ $not$ $quote$ $from$ $questionable$ $sources$.
  10. #830  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    I hate to keep harping on this, but AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK $only$ $one$ $of$ $those$ $6$ $items$ $has$ $been$ $reported$ $by$ $a$ $credible$ $source$ (#$6$). $Anti$-$Bush$ $weblogs$ $don$'$t$ $count$, $no$ $matter$ $how$ $many$ $of$ $them$ $repeat$ $these$ $things$. $I$'$m$ $not$ $saying$ $these$ $things$ $did$ $or$ $did$ $not$ $happen$... $all$ $I$'$m$ $saying$ $is$ $that$ $no$ $one$ $should$ $trust$ $those$ $obviously$ $biased$ $sources$ $without$ $confirmation$ $elsewhere$. $I$'$ve$ $seen$ $plenty$ $of$ $contrary$ $info$ $on$ $conservative$ $weblogs$, $but$ $I$'$ve$ $tried$ $very$ $hard$ $to$ $not$ $quote$ $from$ $questionable$ $sources$.
    If they are true, I would love to know more on why they did. I actually saw an american red cross spokesperson saying they would not enter the city with supplies until they knew it was safe for their staff to do so. Regarding the boats, I had read it on a reliable news site, but they were saying civilian boats were being attacked by gunmen who wanted to steal the boats.
  11. #831  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    I hate to keep harping on this, but AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK $only$ $one$ $of$ $those$ $6$ $items$ $has$ $been$ $reported$ $by$ $a$ $credible$ $source$ (#$6$). $Anti$-$Bush$ $weblogs$ $don$'$t$ $count$, $no$ $matter$ $how$ $many$ $of$ $them$ $repeat$ $these$ $things$. $I$'$m$ $not$ $saying$ $these$ $things$ $did$ $or$ $did$ $not$ $happen$... $all$ $I$'$m$ $saying$ $is$ $that$ $no$ $one$ $should$ $trust$ $those$ $obviously$ $biased$ $sources$ $without$ $confirmation$ $elsewhere$. $I$'$ve$ $seen$ $plenty$ $of$ $contrary$ $info$ $on$ $conservative$ $weblogs$, $but$ $I$'$ve$ $tried$ $very$ $hard$ $to$ $not$ $quote$ $from$ $questionable$ $sources$.
    #2 was reported by the Network news -- I believe it was NBC -- I probably still have the video for it
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  12. #832  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    #2 was reported by the Network news -- I believe it was NBC -- I probably still have the video for it
    Why did they say they turned them away? Was it because the water was gonna go to poor people and Bush didn't want poor people to have water?
  13. #833  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    #2 was reported by the Network news -- I believe it was NBC -- I probably still have the video for it
    Please find a source, I've searched Google and Yahoo and nothing. Is it even true?
  14. #834  
    Fema apparently let the Culligan man make shipments, here's a link...linky

    Maybe Culligan promised only to give water to rich white people, so then FEMA let them inside the city to distribute it.
  15. #835  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    ...Regarding the boats, I had read it on a reliable news site, but they were saying civilian boats were being attacked by gunmen who wanted to steal the boats.
    I posted this yesterday (wow, there's a lot of information in this thread!).
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    To add a little more context to this (and from a slightly more, uh, reliable source):
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...90301680_3.html

    Outside New Orleans, frustration boiled over among the boatmen who spontaneously left their homes in central Louisiana to rescue stranded residents in the first hours after reports of flooding hit the airwaves. For the past two days, many have been turned away because of security concerns in a city that had turned violent and chaotic.

    "It's a tragedy that's unfolding now," said Moose Billeaud, a former New Orleans prosecutor who is now in private practice in Lafayette, La. "It is not organized at all."

    The boatmen who made it in came back with harrowing memories. Kenny, who did not want to disclose his last name, said friends were shot at by stranded people who wanted to steal their boats. "It's total chaos," he said.
    OK, so there are reliable sources for #1 and #6 posted by BARYE. However, the boaters in the Wash Post story seem to have been turned back for good reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    #2 was reported by the Network news -- I believe it was NBC -- I probably still have the video for it
    A Google News search for "bottler Katrina FEMA water" returns one irrelevant hit. If you have more info, that'd be helpful.
  16. #836  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    FEMA was aggressively asserting its authority

    we can all speculate as to the motive --

    3. Walmart attempted to deliver tons of bottled water, FEMA turned them away.
    I'm starting to question if you simply post from liberal blogs that simply make up stories. Here's a link to Wal-Mart Water efforts.
  17. #837  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    FEMA was aggressively asserting its authority

    we can all speculate as to the motive --
    6. The USS Battaan's help was turned away from New Orleans at the very moment the need was for it was greatest.
    Here's a link to USS Bataan's website. They were on the job Tuesday, the day after the storm.

    "The ship is currently operating 45 miles south of Gulfport , Mississippi and was the first U.S. Navy warship on-station in the Gulf of Mexico . During the first two days of the relief efforts, Bataan steamed 100 miles south of New Orleans and since then she has steamed north to just off the Mississippi coast. "
  18. #838  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    I posted this yesterday (wow, there's a lot of information in this thread!).
    OK, so there are reliable sources for #1 and #6 posted by BARYE. However, the boaters in the Wash Post story seem to have been turned back for good reason.
    A Google News search for "bottler Katrina FEMA water" returns one irrelevant hit. If you have more info, that'd be helpful.


    I will attempt to find and post the video -- but that will likely be hours from now -- so be patient...
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  19. #839  
    I found a reference to the water tanker "story" on Mr. Michael Moore's website. He quotes Senator Landrieu. She states "I understand that the U.S. Forest Service had water-tanker aircraft available to help douse the fires raging on our riverfront, but FEMA has yet to accept the aid. When Amtrak offered trains to evacuate significant numbers of victims far more efficiently than buses FEMA again dragged its feet. Offers of medicine, communications equipment and other desperately needed items continue to flow in, only to be ignored by the agency."

    Why is she the only one to say this? Why wouldn't any news source report this besides blogs and Barry? Is it even true?
  20. #840  
    And about that Marine landing craft...
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    The Chicago Tribune has another story about essential help turned away from New Orleans by FEMA.

    The USS Bataan Marine attack carrier, was ready and available -- and in New Orleans Monday afternoon. It was literally there BEFORE THE LEVEE BROKE !!!!
    This is actually evidence of preparedness on the part of the federal government, no? They were conducting helicopter rescues from the early moments of the disaster.
    Its captain appealed to FEMA to be allowed to help.
    Could you please point me to where in this story it says any such thing? I re-read it several times and couldn't find that. Whether the Bataan could have or should have done more in N.O., exaggeration doesn't help make things clearer.
    It was eventually ordered away from N.O. -- to Biloxi, MS.
    It might not be apparent from much of the media coverage, but they had a disaster in Biloxi as well. Perhaps the Bataan was urgently needed there as well? Perhaps sending them there was a mistake, but it's not like FEMA sent them to Cancun.

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