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  1. #701  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    ......(the Bush voters, yes - you must accept that though stupid, we are the majority... ).
    We do accept it; we are properly fearful, if not sufficiently obsequious to satisfy. [Subservience does not wear well on one of my age.] However, you might keep in mind that your claim on the hearts and minds of your citizens is somewhat smaller than your majority in the electoral college, the House of Representatives, the Senate, and even the state houses might suggest. While your majority may last a generation it is nonetheless fragile and temporary. It hardly justifies arrogance and bluster. I am old enough to remember when we were marginal. [Yes, in my youth I was a Goldwater supporter and a segregationist. Somehow I cannot seem to be sufficiently ideological to be in the majority.] However powerful your majority might seem at the moment and however hard it may try to perpetuate itself, it will not last.
  2. #702  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    We do accept it; we are properly fearful, if not sufficiently obsequious to satisfy. [Subservience does not wear well on one of my age.] However, you might keep in mind that your claim on the hearts and minds of your citizens is somewhat smaller than your majority in the electoral college, the House of Representatives, the Senate, and even the state houses might suggest. While your majority may last a generation it is nonetheless fragile and temporary. It hardly justifies arrogance and bluster. I am old enough to remember when we were marginal. [Yes, in my youth I was a Goldwater supporter and a segregationist. Somehow I cannot seem to be sufficiently ideological to be in the majority.] However powerful your majority might seem at the moment and however hard it may try to perpetuate itself, it will not last.
    whmurray -- I've never really known your bias -- (which around here is a pretty big complement)
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  3. #703  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Might this be because the Red Cross doesn't pack firearms, that they would present a soft target to the domestic terrorists we have running around down there?
    Yes, absolutely. However, it is strange; the Red Cross workers do not ask for security but only for the freedom to do their job, i.e., to give succor to the afflicted. It may have been somewhat difficult for them to watch Thursday's TV from the convention center. I for one am rather glad that they are so foolish|courageous [choose one].
  4. #704  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    We do accept it; we are properly fearful, if not sufficiently obsequious to satisfy. [Subservience does not wear well on one of my age.]
    Nor should it.
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    However, you might keep in mind that your claim on the hearts and minds of your citizens is somewhat smaller than your majority in the electoral college, the House of Representatives, the Senate, and even the state houses might suggest. While your majority may last a generation it is nonetheless fragile and temporary.
    As are all majorities, when viewed through the lens of history.
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    It hardly justifies arrogance and bluster.
    Certainly, that was not my intention. My intention was to point out that though one might support this particular President and his policies, the assertion of stupidity by association (as is all too often done by those on the other side) is resented. If there are none here who believe that 51% of the country is stupid for having voted for Bush and his policies, then just accept my statement in the intended spirit - as an (obviously unsuccessful ) attempt at humor.
  5. #705  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    whmurray -- I've never really known your bias -- (which around here is a pretty big complement)
    Heavens! Do I betray a bias? How clumsy of me.
  6. #706  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    .....If there are none here who believe that 51% of the country is stupid for having voted for Bush and his policies, then just accept my statement in the intended spirit - as an (obviously unsuccessful ) attempt at humor.
    So taken and done. I have been known to get carried away by my own rhetoric.
  7. #707  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Nor should it.
    As are all majorities, when viewed through the lens of history.
    Certainly, that was not my intention. My intention was to point out that though one might support this particular President and his policies, the assertion of stupidity by association (as is all too often done by those on the other side) is resented. If there are none here who believe that 51% of the country is stupid for having voted for Bush and his policies, then just accept my statement in the intended spirit - as an (obviously unsuccessful ) attempt at humor.

    I know most all of us are glad you've joined us -- we welcome new victims here in O.T. -- whether they're allies or not !!
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  8. #708  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    phurth -- the superdome & convention center were set up under the supervision of the National Guard. They were the ones controling those locations as people who could not evacuate the city arrived there sunday night. They were the ones bragging about supplies available, about how everyone was searched for weapons before they'd be allowed to enter.
    Yes, but under the direct command of state and local officials. I've not seen a story quoting anyone bragging about supplies, but I did find this quote: "The mayor said people who opted to go to the Superdome should take enough food and supplies to last three to five days." here.
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    I have video news reports of truckers loaded and ready MONDAY to travel to NO -- but they were stopped by DHS. Bottlers ready with water stopped by DHS. People with boats stopped by DHS.
    If true and complete, these accounts are obviously a damning indictment of someone at DHS.
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    As you write -- for 2-3 days news reports talked excitely about the storm of the century bearing down on New Orleans. The CATEGORY FIVE STORM headed straight for N.O. !!!. How the city had ordered an unprecedented evacuation because a categoory 5 storm would likely swamp the levee and flood the city for 6 months.
    No, I quoted from a story that appeared on Sunday. Katrina strengthened very quickly from a category 3 to a 5 between Saturday and Sunday.
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    ...junior can say with a straight face that the levees failing was a total surprise, why its taken 5-6 days to come to the aid of stranded families...
    The President probably meant that after Katrina seemed to veer away from N.O. and weaken just prior to landfall, that the levee collapse was indeed unexpected. I didn't see the quote, so I don't know. I saw that many in N.O. believed on Monday they had once again dodged a bullet.

    There may indeed be plenty of blame to lay at the feet of FEMA/DHS. Until we know more about items like the one you cite above, well I guess my bias is to give the rescuers and their bosses the benefit of the doubt (for now). What does seem clear to me is that local and state officials let the citizens of N.O. down - disastrously. Had there been sufficient supplies, facilities, and security ready at the "shelters of last resort", we'd be talking about a major inconvenience and pain in the a** for sure, but probably not a tragedy. The evacuees were told to "take enough food and supplies to last three to five days". Clearly that was unrealistic, but it would seem to indicate that the plan never called for the feds to ride in on Monday on their white horse. Maybe that *should have been* the plan, but it seems it wasn't. If it takes 3-4 days to put together the kind of response we're now seeing (which would seem to be the case), they'd have had to have started putting things together no later than Friday. Friday Katrina was closer to Cuba and Florida than Louisiana and was a category 3 storm. Would anyone have supported gathering the resources we now see deployed last Friday for a storm that may or may not be the big one? Again, in restrospect - Yes! Unfortunately, last Friday we did not know what we do now.
  9. #709  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    I know most all of us are glad you've joined us -- we welcome new victims here in O.T. -- whether they're allies or not !!
    I'm glad to be taking part - there are some great discussions here in O.T. Thanks for the welcome.
  10. NRG
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    #710  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Advance you are in heaven ever since that thumbs down icon was added.
  11. #711  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Advance you are in heaven ever since that thumbs down icon was added.
    I simply have no response to Barry and the media who implies that Bush purposely murdered our American citizens.

    The mayor screwed up, the governor screwed up, a flood encompassed almost the entire city and people directly blame Bush. They don't understand the bureaucratical bs protocol. Bush declared the NO/Miss a disaster area 2 days before the storm. This not a ceremonial comment. This is a huge statement of federal help. It left the Governor the power to administer additional outside help. She didn't react. Instead she relied on approximately 6,000 guardsman and local and state police to handle a city that may have 200,000 people that did not evacuate. There were millions of dollars of fireman supplies and generators strategically placed throughout Southeastern cities (including Clearwater, FL) that if requested by the Governor could of been there within 24 hours. She never made that request, instead firemen had to let fire rage on and fight fires in civilian clothes, including shorts. The Mayor had a 2001 written city plan to evacuate the City by utilizing school buses and City buses. I have no idea why he didn't initiate that plan.

    This protocol sucks and it will be changed to bypass inept local city and state govts. This is unfortunate because this places even more power with the federal goverment, which I disagree with.
  12. #712  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Advance -- I hope you know that I'm just expressing my frustration -- I wasn't directing any anger at you
    10-4, I was angry at you , you make valid points then you lash out and make talking point accusations that imply Bush doesn't mind poor and black people to die and theat it wouldn't happen in Florida. btw, I don't think it would happen in Florida. I don't think there is anywhere a flooding problem would occur like in NO and our Governor is a better governor than Louisana's. Go back before Jeb Bush when we had democratic gov's and I still think we were better prepared for hurricanes. Other t/c posters will agree with me, the local and state govt here scares the bejesus out of us until we do evacuate. I know in NE Fla we do have local (let me reiterate LOCAL - not the Federal Govt job) to evacuate ALL races of people and ALL economic classes.
  13. #713  
    Has anyone heard about an organized effort to screen the victims for health related diseases (ecoli, choloria, West Nile, etc.) since they are shipping them throughout the US?

    I would hate to hear that infectious diseases are being reported and spread through out communities trying to help.
    "Everyday is a Gift, A Blessing, An Opportunity!" - GM

    Phone history: Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo Centro, Pixi, Centro again, 800w, Treo 755p, Palm Pre
  14. #714  
    Quote Originally Posted by GeekyMom
    Has anyone heard about an organized effort to screen the victims for health related diseases (ecoli, choloria, West Nile, etc.) since they are shipping them throughout the US?

    I would hate to hear that infectious diseases are being reported and spread through out communities trying to help.
    What an outrageous suggestion. American citizens do not require the permission of the government to travel. They do not have to submit to medical screening to travel. Spread of disease by travel is a necessary and tolerable risk.

    I can assure you that disease will spread like wild fire in these crowded shelters. The more widely we can spread the victims the better.

    Get over it!
  15. #715  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    What an outrageous suggestion. American citizens do not require the permission of the government to travel. They do not have to submit to medical screening to travel. Spread of disease by travel is a necessary and tolerable risk.

    I can assure you that disease will spread like wild fire in these crowded shelters. The more widely we can spread the victims the better.

    Get over it!
    While I agree with everything you just said, I also feel that organized health care for these "victims" is in everyone's best interest, especially theirs. It would be great if their first stop was at a hospital to get checked out and/or treated.
    "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
    - Albert Einstein
  16. #716  
    Quote Originally Posted by GeekyMom
    Has anyone heard about an organized effort to screen the victims for health related diseases (ecoli, choloria, West Nile, etc.) since they are shipping them throughout the US?

    I would hate to hear that infectious diseases are being reported and spread through out communities trying to help.
    You better be really careful what you ask for. You might get it. You better read your history. After watching TV on Thursday, are you really so sure that 1927 cannot happen again? We may be only days from calls for concentration camps as it is. We already hear NIMBY.

    Bite your tongue! The very last thing we need in this time of crisis is more fearful speculation from the comfortable.
  17. #717  
    I am on Michael Moore's email list for sh!ts and giggles. Here's his latest. Notice he wants the federal govt to run the show...gimmee, gimmee, gimmee. I have faith in my hometown and state.

    from Leading Democrat Supporter, Mr. Michael Moore...
    Friday, September 2nd, 2005

    Dear Mr. Bush:

    Any idea where all our helicopters are? It's Day 5 of Hurricane Katrina and thousands remain stranded in New Orleans and need to be airlifted. Where on earth could you have misplaced all our military choppers? Do you need help finding them? I once lost my car in a Sears parking lot. Man, was that a drag.

    Also, any idea where all our national guard soldiers are? We could really use them right now for the type of thing they signed up to do like helping with national disasters. How come they weren't there to begin with?

    Last Thursday I was in south Florida and sat outside while the eye of Hurricane Katrina passed over my head. It was only a Category 1 then but it was pretty nasty. Eleven people died and, as of today, there were still homes without power. That night the weatherman said this storm was on its way to New Orleans. That was Thursday! Did anybody tell you? I know you didn't want to interrupt your vacation and I know how you don't like to get bad news. Plus, you had fundraisers to go to and mothers of dead soldiers to ignore and smear. You sure showed her!

    I especially like how, the day after the hurricane, instead of flying to Louisiana, you flew to San Diego to party with your business peeps. Don't let people criticize you for this -- after all, the hurricane was over and what the heck could you do, put your finger in the dike?

    And don't listen to those who, in the coming days, will reveal how you specifically reduced the Army Corps of Engineers' budget for New Orleans this summer for the third year in a row. You just tell them that even if you hadn't cut the money to fix those levees, there weren't going to be any Army engineers to fix them anyway because you had a much more important construction job for them -- BUILDING DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ!

    On Day 3, when you finally left your vacation home, I have to say I was moved by how you had your Air Force One pilot descend from the clouds as you flew over New Orleans so you could catch a quick look of the disaster. Hey, I know you couldn't stop and grab a bullhorn and stand on some rubble and act like a commander in chief. Been there done that.

    There will be those who will try to politicize this tragedy and try to use it against you. Just have your people keep pointing that out. Respond to nothing. Even those pesky scientists who predicted this would happen because the water in the Gulf of Mexico is getting hotter and hotter making a storm like this inevitable. Ignore them and all their global warming Chicken Littles. There is nothing unusual about a hurricane that was so wide it would be like having one F-4 tornado that stretched from New York to Cleveland.

    No, Mr. Bush, you just stay the course. It's not your fault that 30 percent of New Orleans lives in poverty or that tens of thousands had no transportation to get out of town. C'mon, they're black! I mean, it's not like this happened to Kennebunkport. Can you imagine leaving white people on their roofs for five days? Don't make me laugh! Race has nothing -- NOTHING -- to do with this!

    You hang in there, Mr. Bush. Just try to find a few of our Army helicopters and send them there. Pretend the people of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast are near Tikrit.

    Yours,

    Michael Moore
    MMFlint@aol.com
    www.MichaelMoore.com

    P.S. That annoying mother, Cindy Sheehan, is no longer at your ranch. She and dozens of other relatives of the Iraqi War dead are now driving across the country, stopping in many cities along the way. Maybe you can catch up with them before they get to DC on September 21st.
  18. #718  
    Quote Originally Posted by ExtraOrdinaryJo
    While I agree with everything you just said, I also feel that organized health care for these "victims" is in everyone's best interest, especially theirs. It would be great if their first stop was at a hospital to get checked out and/or treated.
    It would be wonderful wouldn't it? First let's be sure that we can feed and house them. So far it does not look good.
  19. #719  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    You better be really careful what you ask for. You might get it. You better read your history. After watching TV on Thursday, are you really so sure that 1927 cannot happen again? We may be only days from calls for concentration camps as it is. We already hear NIMBY.

    Bite your tongue! The very last thing we need in this time of crisis is more fearful speculation from the comfortable.
    LOL, you may be right. But we will see.
    "Everyday is a Gift, A Blessing, An Opportunity!" - GM

    Phone history: Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo Centro, Pixi, Centro again, 800w, Treo 755p, Palm Pre
  20. #720  
    Quote Originally Posted by GeekyMom
    LOL, you may be right. But we will see.
    If I am only partly right, I doubt that any of us will be laughing.

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