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  1. #661  
    earlier I was skeptical of the reports of shootings etc.

    But I have heard enough eyewitness reports that I have to accept that shootings, murder, and rape happened. Deplorable and inexcusable.

    This does not in anyway absolve the 5+ day delay in saving innocent people from that watery fetid hell.

    Resources were available and ready days before they were allowed to be delivered.

    People were left without water or food for days within easy access of buses.

    People were left stranded in the the Superdome and the Convention center without sanitation, food or water -- while the director of homeland insecurity claimed all was going great at those places.

    EVERY report that I saw, made by reporters actualy there, showed people with patience greater than Job while they waited like in a Beckett farce, for help that never came.

    I'm convinced that some of the excessive talk of violence has as it motive a search for an excuse for the incompetence of the rescue. (Faux in particular emphasized the thuggery from what I have heard).

    Through denigrating the heroic quality of the patient people left to starve, dehydrate and die -- our collective empathy for them -- and the apropriate anger at those properly responsible --is lessened.

    Everything that occurred at the superdome and the convention center is inexcusable.

    Setup by the National Guard as safe havens, they had practically no water or food, and sanitation became almost immediately unusable. And though conditions there quickly became lethally noxious, survivors were still continually instructed to mass there. For nearly 6 days, americans -- largely poor and black americans -- effectively were abandoned.

    Had this tragedy happened in Florida during an election year, I'm certain we would have had an entirely differrent outcome.

    The cultural suspician, frustration, and anger of the effected community is entirely understandable to me...
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  2. #662  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Had this tragedy happened in Florida during an election year, I'm certain we would have had an entirely differrent outcome.
    Man, you really go from quality posts to trolling.

    Where is your post that Bush hates black people and he purposely refrained from giving them help?
  3. #663  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    No it is not a coincidence. Same thing applies all across the US. Advance The Man could probably bolster this, maybe not. But, because it is a low lying area, the housing there is bound to be cheaper, or more affordable to people with less. I am not even too sure that this area would be insurable.

    This post probably means nothing.
    No coincidence, but not racism. Silly comment by the previous poster.
  4. #664  
    Quote Originally Posted by illustreous
    Ask yourself where this "incompetence" comes from. Wouldn't you agree that the dilapidated housing of the overwhelming majority of those affected was a contributing factor to exacerbating the situation? Is it a coincidence that the 9th ward is one of the lowest lying parts of NO and where the some of the poorest folks live? This is not about a conspiracy to suppress minorities. Are you kidding me? This is an overt reality. This incompetence that you speak of is the product of inequalities. You attribute it to something behavioral with the source being the people themselves. I attribute it to the inequalities rife within the system which, ultimately, manufacture this incompetence.



    Too late for a national catastrophe not unbeknownst to feds and the rest of the country 24 hours prior prior to it actually happening!



    Easier said than done, my friend. I'm surprised you even went here. Imagine losing everything and then facing near death by drowning, etc. Lets see how long you hold up before panicking, Tiger.



    I will be the first to tell you that there was poor planning. Why? Perhaps it's because of who you are planning for. Think about it.



    You know better not to generalize a few bad apples versus close to 75,000 people. And that's the case here - plain unruly behavior by those a bit more unstable than you and me. You think lefties and righties alike condone that behavior? Stop rotating on the ignorance stick for a moment and join the party.



    Again...who are you planning for? 68% of NO is African American.



    Hurricanes Charley and Andrew had WITHIN 24 response times. No massive conspiracy here, just Uncle Sam not having their priorities straight.



    Yes, but I think you and the vast majority of Americans would believe that this response was still way too slow. This is a national disaster. I'm in NY and I paid $4.49/gallon for gas yesterday. This has affected everyone's hearts, minds and wallets. I'm sure if Katrina veered a few hundred miles west the response would've been much quicker, much different.



    Again, no conspiracies. Certain inequalities are built into the system. Period. I'll spare the ad hominem as I've recognized it's integral to your logic.



    You must be teaching Pre-K then.

    Inequalities built into the system...you speak the code well.

    This disaster is a direct result of the welfare state. The inequalities of which you so passionately speak come from generations that were fed a bare subsistance. Liberal policies created the Animal Farm and Lord of the Flies subsociety which surfaced this past week, at a time when civilization was at its most vulnerable. Having come to expect government to provide for their every need, I guess it was reasonable for these people to assume that Big Brother would step in again. A hard lesson...I wonder who learned it?

    These people knew the storm was coming, yet couldn't be bothered with bottling water, setting aside dry food, making provision. Their local government couldn't even provide instructions.

    As far as how well I would fare in similiar circumstances, well, I've got food and water for two weeks in my condo. I have a radio. I have a brain. I suspect I'd do OK. It would be a month or so before I turned to predation

    Regarding the planning, are you claiming that the government of New Orleans planned the demise of their own populace? Surely you must be, because the mayor OWNED those school buses and the metro buses that right now are covered in water. To have no evacuation plan, after decades of knowing this was coming, rises well above normal government incompetence to the realm of criminal negligence.

    You claim to eschew ad hominems, but refer to me as "soldier" and "tiger" "Rotating on the ignorance stick", etc. Your contempt for my service drips from your words. Your hypocrisy glows. And your characterization of shooting at relief workers are "unruly" behavior really lowers the bar. You must really long for the "wilding" days of Mayor Dinkins up in NYC.

    I'll carry this as far as you want, but know this. I was among the first on this board to scream BS at the speed of the federal response to this disaster, given the obvious incompetence of local authorities. I laid out EXACTLY how I would have planned and dealt with this situation. You have done nothing but race and class bait by innuendo. Where are your solutions?
  5. #665  
    Quote Originally Posted by vw2002
    I just knew the jesse jackson and al sharpton circus clowns would jump in on this. just disgusting.

    once, AGAIN, let's go pull out the race card on everybody whenever anything bad happens.

    what a joke. sure the majority suffering in new orleans and mississippi are african americans, but NOT because we deliberately neglected to warn them.

    its a horrific tragedy down there, but for christ's sake its not "the white man against the black man" with all things. come on, stop it already. these guys are just nauseating with their race card crap.
    Agreed
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  6. #666  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Man, you really go from quality posts to trolling.

    Where is your post that Bush hates black people and he purposely refrained from giving them help?

    I never said that -- nor do I believe it.

    For all the bad that I ascribe to junior -- I absolutely believe that he is NOT a racist.

    I believe him to be an oppurtunist -- a hypocrite, and an incompetent.

    If this tragedy had effected black republicans (which do exist, and in great numbers, unfortunately), his interest, and that of his appointed staff, would have been vastly different.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  7. #667  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    I never said that -- nor do I believe it.

    For all the bad that I ascribe to junior -- I absolutely believe that he is NOT a racist.

    I believe him to be an oppurtunist -- a hypocrite, and an incompetent.

    If this tragedy had effected black republicans (which do exist, and in great numbers, unfortunately), his interest, and that of his appointed staff, would have been vastly different.
  8. #668  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    ......The cultural suspician, frustration, and anger of the effected community is entirely understandable to me...
    Aye, and to me. And, if that is "political," then so be it.
  9. #669  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    I will regret nothing I have to say and you will be embarrassed by everything you say.
    So you're right and everyone else is wrong?
    .
    .....
    MarkEagle
    .....<a href="http://discussion.treocentral.com/tcforum/index.php?s=">TreoCentral</a> | <a href="http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/index.php?s=">VisorCentral</a> Forum Moderator - Forum Guidelines
    .....Sprint PCS Treo 650
    .....God bless America, my home sweet home...
  10. #670  
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkEagle
    So you're right and everyone else is wrong?
    Rarely.
  11. #671  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    The cultural suspician, frustration, and anger of the effected community is entirely understandable to me...
    Me, too. I'll never again trust the population of a city beset with crime and rife with corruption to be able to remotely come up to the task of taking care of itself.
  12. #672  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    I never said that -- nor do I believe it.

    For all the bad that I ascribe to junior -- I absolutely believe that he is NOT a racist.

    I believe him to be an oppurtunist -- a hypocrite, and an incompetent.

    If this tragedy had effected black republicans (which do exist, and in great numbers, unfortunately), his interest, and that of his appointed staff, would have been vastly different.

    It is "unforunate" in your world view that blacks have left the liberal plantation. I mean, those policies have done so much for them...trapping them in inner city rat holes...forcing their children to substandard schools. Yes, how DARE they make a choice.

    Your statement speaks volumes. Volumes.

    I will say this. W was poorly served by his staff. His long acknowledged loyalty to staff must be put aside this time...heads must roll. I'd start with the head of DHS, then FEMA. I'd take a hard look at NORTHCOM. This was goat rope, top to bottom.

    I wonder how much of this lack of preparadness on the part of our esteemed government agencies had to do with the proximty of the Labor Day weekend?
  13. #673  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Me, too. I'll never again trust the population of a city beset with crime and rife with corruption to be able to remotely come up to the task of taking care of itself.
    No. Nor me. However, these were the least of the least, the impotent, the powerless. These were young mothers, their infants, and their ancient parents. The Mayor had already thrown himself on his sword. He was begging for his people, perhaps with angry rhetoric but does anyone here believe he had any pride left?

    My goddaughter would be on your side; she has an innate sense of justice and fairness. It persists in the face of my caution that pretty little girls who live in New Canaan should prefer mercy, generousity, and charity. I would love to believe that I live in the comfort in which I live by own desserts rather than by the grace of God.
  14. #674  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man

    jeez -- that is probably the single most generous post I've ever made about your guy, and that's all you can say ???

    All that restraint I showed by not mentioning that he is the single laziest man to ever capture the White House, that his personal wealth is largely the product of a minority "ownership" in a baseball team which became immensely more valuable as a direct result of his extorting the city of Arlington Texas into giving his private enterprise corporate welfare, that he's been tirelessly tilting the econmy and tax system toward the already wealthy, that his ignorance and friendship with oil companies has made us more vulnerable to our oil addiction while contributing to a worsening of global warming, that he's changed the clean air rules to benefit his friends with old coal fired heavily polluting plants, and that he has been single mindedly appointing ultra conservative judges with the intent to limit personal liberty and criminalize abortion -- that I haven't mentioned Iraq and the resources, National Guardsmen, and equipment etc. that were not available in Louisiana --


    all that restraint I showed -- and all I get is a thumbs down ???

    after being called a troll ??

    after having been called a "vulture" by a guy who then advocated "shooting people in the head" ??

    after having read post after post of people categorizing each other as racists --

    after watching day after day of grandmothers without insulin drying up and dying in the sun ???

    I feel like I've been quite restrained ...




    "no modern president was a more famous vacationer than Ronald Reagan, who loved spending time at his ranch in Santa Barbara, Calif. According to an Associated Press count, Reagan spent all or part of 335 days in Santa Barbara over his eight-year presidency -- a total that Bush will surpass this month in Crawford with 3 1/2 years left in his second term..."


    "As everyone knows, George W. used $600,000 from the Harken stock sale to buy a tiny slice of the Texas Rangers; and when the Rangers were sold last year for $250 million, the second-largest amount ever paid for a baseball team, George W. emerged with more than $14.9 million. What had made the ball club so valuable was a gift from the public a $200 million stadium mostly paid for by a sales tax [on] the citizens of Arlington, Texas..."

    "...When members of the Louisiana National Guard left for Iraq in October, they took a lot equipment with them. Dozens of high water vehicles, humvees, refuelers and generators are now abroad, and in the event of a major natural disaster that, could be a problem.

    "The National Guard needs that equipment back home to support the homeland security mission," said Lt. Colonel Pete Schneider with the LA National Guard..." (August 1, 2005)
    Last edited by BARYE; 09/03/2005 at 08:54 PM.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  15. #675  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    ........I will say this. W was poorly served by his staff. His long acknowledged loyalty to staff must be put aside this time...heads must roll. I'd start with the head of DHS, then FEMA. I'd take a hard look at NORTHCOM. This was goat rope, top to bottom......
    Perhaps, as sometimes happens in the Internet, we are in violent agreement. Would you add Carl Rove to this list?
  16. #676  
    The governor of LA had an entire engineer brigade...with heavy equipment, at her disposal. Calling those troops up, however, would have been an unenforceable order. Those guys wouldn't have left their families, and who can blame them?

    What I do find disconcerting was that everyone was "waiting for orders", like the damned Soviet Army. Were I a helo squadron commander I would at this moment have 1) maxed out credit cards and 2) my helicopters on "training missions" in and around the New Orleans area.
  17. #677  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    Perhaps, as sometimes happens in the Internet, we are in violent agreement. Would you add Carl Rove to this list?
    No. Need to keep him around just to keep guys like you twisting in the wind. Whatever happened to that treason scandal, anyway? I'm still waiting for Tom Delay to be "frogmarched" down the capitol steps. Halliburton indictments...any day now!

    Do you thinks Sandy Berger should be in jail, or is your outrage selective?
  18. #678  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    jeez -- that is probably the single most generous post I've ever made about your guy, and that's all you can say ??? ........
    all that restraint I showed ....
    C'mon, tell us what you really think.
  19. #679  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    The governor of LA had an entire engineer brigade...with heavy equipment, at her disposal. Calling those troops up, however, would have been an unenforceable order. Those guys wouldn't have left their families, and who can blame them?

    What I do find disconcerting was that everyone was "waiting for orders", like the damned Soviet Army. Were I a helo squadron commander I would at this moment have 1) maxed out credit cards and 2) my helicopters on "training missions" in and around the New Orleans area.

    with respect -- Governors are not disaster specialists -- that is what FEMA exists for.

    This appointed group has shown itself to be BIG on talk -- woeful in performance.

    to paraphrase a Texasism: "big hat, small boy ..."
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  20. #680  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    to paraphrase a Texasism: "big hat, small boy ..."
    The actual phrase is "All hat...no cattle"
    Well behaved women rarely make history

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