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  1. #481  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    I did some reading, and as terrible as things are, it usually takes about a week to mobilize all of FEMA to move in and help with disaster relief.
    An emergency organisation which takes a week to mobilize is useless for obvious reasons.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  2. #482  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    ]

    I keep seeing quotes where local politicians were asking for federal funds. I think this should be a local, state issue first and foremost. Everyone is always looking for someone else to pay instead of saying here is the problem, here is the plan to fix it with our funds.
    Priorities should have some association to the degree of risk being addressed --- and value gained for the nation as a whole.

    I think New Orleans merited a bit more than the "bridge to no where":


    A bridge to nowhereAlaska's Gravina Island (population less than 50) will soon be connected to the megalopolis of Ketchikan (pop. 8,000) by a bridge nearly as long as the Golden Gate and higher than the Brooklyn Bridge. Alaska residents can thank Rep. Don Young, who just brought home $941 million worth of bacon.

    ..."How is the bridge going to pay for itself?" asks Susan Walsh, Sallee's wife, who works as a nurse in Ketchikan. She notes that a ferry, which runs every 15 minutes in the summer, already connects Gravina to Ketchikan. "It can get us to the hospital in
    five minutes. How is this bridge fair to the rest of the country"

    ...The bill spends $86 per person on a national average; it spends an estimated $1,500 on every Alaskan.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  3. #483  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    An emergency organisation which takes a week to mobilize is useless for obvious reasons.
    Sorry, that's the facts of life.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  4. #484  
    Cat 5 Hurricane plan for New Orleans was 25 years away

    You can read the story in the Army Corp of Engineers magazine from last year.

    Story
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  5. #485  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    That is the definition of anarchy or chaos. The benefits of cooperation and collaboration that we call civilization are sufficiently valuable that we should be willing to go to the wall for it before we decide "every man for himself."
    No. That is the definition of a functioning society. The civilization you refer to is a welfare state, where goods, services and money are extorted from society's producers for redistribution to people that could take care of themsleves, but choose not to.

    You see now the result.
  6. #486  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    I keep seeing quotes where local politicians were asking for federal funds. I think this should be a local, state issue first and foremost.
    28 percent of the people and 40 percent of the children in NO live below the official poverty line.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  7. #487  
    Precisely, Prasad. Furthermore, this was, to a certain extent, a somewhat calculatable disaster. As mentioned by several other posters New Orleans, Lousiana and feds new at least 24 hours in advance of the Katrina's landfall that certain emergency measures and protocols should be set in place on a worst case scenario. If you rewind to August 28, the consensus (expert and public) was that NO was on a direct hit by a cat 5 storm. Just the reality of that possibility compounded by the fact that NO sits below the water table should've been cause for feds to take certain preemptive steps (stockpiling food, water, preparing refugee facilities outside of immediate NO area, etc.) in order to thwart this kind of chaos.

    What if more affluent neigborhoods in NO (or a more affluent city for that matter) was affected by this hurricane? Would help have arrived any sooner? I wonder sometimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    World piles on .. but, do they have a point?

    http://today.reuters.com/news/newsAr...EACTION-DC.XML

    World Stunned as U.S. Struggles with Katrina


    http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/news/...-reaction.html

    By REUTERS
    Published: September 2, 2005

    Filed at 9:39 a.m. ET

    LONDON (Reuters) - The world has watched amazed as the planet's only superpower struggles with the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, with some saying the chaos has exposed flaws and deep divisions in American society.

    World leaders and ordinary citizens have expressed sympathy with the people of the southern United States whose lives were devastated by the hurricane and the flooding that followed.

    But many have also been shocked by the images of disorder beamed around the world -- looters roaming the debris-strewn streets and thousands of people gathered in New Orleans waiting for the authorities fail to provide food, water and other aid.

    ``Anarchy in the USA'' declared Britain's best-selling newspaper The Sun.

    ``Apocalypse Now'' headlined Germany's Handelsblatt daily.

    The pictures of the catastrophe -- which has killed hundreds and possibly thousands -- have evoked memories of crises in the world's poorest nations such as last year's tsunami in Asia, which left more than 230,000 people dead or missing.

    But some view the response to those disasters more favorably than the lawless aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.

    ``I am absolutely disgusted. After the tsunami our people, even the ones who lost everything, wanted to help the others who were suffering,'' Sajeewa Chinthaka, 36, as he watched a cricket match in Colombo, Sri Lanka.

    ``Not a single tourist caught in the tsunami was mugged. Now with all this happening in the U.S. we can easily see where the civilized part of the world's population is.''

    More .....
  8. #488  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    28 percent of the people and 40 percent of the children in NO live below the official poverty line.
    Yes. Generation upon generation hooked to the welfare state. We've pumped trillions into those programs, and look at the social chaos that has bought us.

    I've visited NO frequently, mostly to visit the D-Day museum to conduct interviews for a screenplay I'm working on, but also for business. The City got their cut of every hotel build I paid and every meal I ate. There may not have been enough money to build sturdier levees, but there sure as hell should have been money to preposition supplies for this most obvious contingency.
  9. cardio's Avatar
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    #489  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Priorities should have some association to the degree of risk being addressed --- and value gained for the nation as a whole.

    I think New Orleans merited a bit more than the "bridge to no where":


    A bridge to nowhereAlaska's Gravina Island (population less than 50) will soon be connected to the megalopolis of Ketchikan (pop. 8,000) by a bridge nearly as long as the Golden Gate and higher than the Brooklyn Bridge. Alaska residents can thank Rep. Don Young, who just brought home $941 million worth of bacon.

    ..."How is the bridge going to pay for itself?" asks Susan Walsh, Sallee's wife, who works as a nurse in Ketchikan. She notes that a ferry, which runs every 15 minutes in the summer, already connects Gravina to Ketchikan. "It can get us to the hospital in
    five minutes. How is this bridge fair to the rest of the country"

    ...The bill spends $86 per person on a national average; it spends an estimated $1,500 on every Alaskan.
    Solidifies my thoughts that the bridge should be funded by local and state as well as the levee. We as a society keep looking for someone else to pay our portion. I am not saying the federal gov't has no part to play but it has to start at home.
  10. #490  
    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    28 percent of the people and 40 percent of the children in NO live below the official poverty line.
  11. #491  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    An emergency organisation which takes a week to mobilize is useless for obvious reasons.
    "GENEVA, 7 Jan. (UNHCR) – In a humanitarian gesture on Friday, the Swiss government offered the U.N. refugee agency three Super Puma military helicopters for a period of three months to help deliver relief and shelter materials in the tsunami-devastated Indonesian province of Aceh. The helicopters will be available early next week.

    The tsunami was Dec 26th. Just to refresh your memory.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  12. #492  
    What if more affluent neigborhoods in NO (or a more affluent city for that matter) was affected by this hurricane? Would help have arrived any sooner? I wonder sometimes.

    And the class warfare crowd weighs in.

    Let me guess...Diebold rigged the machines in Ohio. Chimpy was selected, not elected. Saddam wasn't supporting terrorism and it is all Halliburton's fault.
  13. #493  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Sorry, that's the facts of life.
    No they are not. We have a civil protection system that can be ready overnight because it uses local resources and collaborates closely with local police, fire departments, health services, and military. We have a militia army, and once you are too old, you become part of the civil protection service. There are shelters for every single inhabitant here, and millions of beds in shelters ready. That's maybe a bit exaggerated nowadays, but still in comes in handy in case of floods etc.

    I think there is one big difference between such systems in Europe and in the US: most of that civil protection stuff goes back to war times. Since you did not have any major bombings etc. of your cities (or even a real threat of that happening), you also never had the need of establishing such structures.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  14. cardio's Avatar
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    #494  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    28 percent of the people and 40 percent of the children in NO live below the official poverty line.
    And if the tax dollars (especially from the tourist) were used to repair and strengthen the levees how many of that 28% would have applied for the job? It would mean hard work for your wages instead of a monthly gov't check.
  15. #495  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Cat 5 Hurricane plan for New Orleans was 25 years away

    You can read the story in the Army Corp of Engineers magazine from last year.

    Story
    for years experts have warned that NO would be hit by a big hurricane -- and that a cat 4-5 could breech the levee -- causing massive loss of life and property.

    Federal funding was cut for the reenforcement and raising of these levees. (these are EXPENSIVE projects. A poor local district wasn't able to pay for it itself.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  16. #496  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    "GENEVA, 7 Jan. (UNHCR) – In a humanitarian gesture on Friday, the Swiss government offered the U.N. refugee agency three Super Puma military helicopters for a period of three months to help deliver relief and shelter materials in the tsunami-devastated Indonesian province of Aceh. The helicopters will be available early next week.

    The tsunami was Dec 26th. Just to refresh your memory.
    There were Swiss medics and rescue workers in Aceh on the 28th. Believe me, I was there when the calls were made to make them ready on the 26. Don't forget that Aceh is on the other side of the globe, not in our back yard.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  17. #497  
    Circumstances being equal, I'm quite certain that if Beverly Hills were hit by a cat 5, the response would have been far different.

    It is in the history of this country - look no further than 60 years ago to see accurate represenatations of class warfare.

    Saddam/Halliburton? Non sequitor and a ridiculous and unnecessary parallel you are making here. Lets stick to the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    What if more affluent neigborhoods in NO (or a more affluent city for that matter) was affected by this hurricane? Would help have arrived any sooner? I wonder sometimes.

    And the class warfare crowd weighs in.

    Let me guess...Diebold rigged the machines in Ohio. Chimpy was selected, not elected. Saddam wasn't supporting terrorism and it is all Halliburton's fault.
  18. #498  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    No they are not. We have a civil protection system that can be ready overnight because it uses local resources and collaborates closely with local police, fire departments, health services, and military. We have a militia army, and once you are too old, you become part of the civil protection service. There are shelters for every single inhabitant here, and millions of beds in shelters ready. That's maybe a bit exaggerated nowadays, but still in comes in handy in case of floods etc.

    I think there is one big difference between such systems in Europe and in the US: most of that civil protection stuff goes back to war times. Since you did not have any major bombings etc. of your cities (or even a real threat of that happening), you also never had the need of establishing such structures.
    Disagree. We lived under the threat of nuclear annihilation for decades...the whole Civil Defense thing was there, but atrophied after we won the Cold War.

    Also, how long does it take to drive across Switzerland? A few hours? Hell, on a bad day that's an average commute to work for me.

    We've had sufficient natural catastrophes, not to mention getting the snot stomped out of us on 9/11, to where this should have been a rote response. The bottom line is that a massive government is a massive bureacracy, where the process IS the product. Individuals, neighborhoods, municipalities and states should be self-sufficient for AT LEAST 7 days in these circumstances. The NO government and state of LA really, REALLY dropped the ball here.
  19. #499  
    Quote Originally Posted by illustreous
    Precisely, Prasad. Furthermore, this was, to a certain extent, a somewhat calculatable disaster. As mentioned by several other posters New Orleans, Lousiana and feds new at least 24 hours in advance of the Katrina's landfall that certain emergency measures and protocols should be set in place on a worst case scenario. If you rewind to August 28, the consensus (expert and public) was that NO was on a direct hit by a cat 5 storm. Just the reality of that possibility compounded by the fact that NO sits below the water table should've been cause for feds to take certain preemptive steps (stockpiling food, water, preparing refugee facilities outside of immediate NO area, etc.) in order to thwart this kind of chaos.

    What if more affluent neigborhoods in NO (or a more affluent city for that matter) was affected by this hurricane? Would help have arrived any sooner? I wonder sometimes.
    agree.

    The worst case scenario last week was 2-4 days away from New Orleans.

    It was not then "a worst case scenario" -- it was THEN a probable scenario -- an expected, predicted scenario --

    New Orleans was thought for days to be the bulls eye for Katrina.

    Yet hardly anything was done -- naval vessels are just NOW leaving from Norfolk and are still days away...
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  20. #500  
    Quote Originally Posted by illustreous
    Circumstances being equal, I'm quite certain that if Beverly Hills were hit by a cat 5, the response would have been far different.

    It is in the history of this country - look no further than 60 years ago to see accurate represenatations of class warfare.

    Saddam/Halliburton? Non sequitor and a ridiculous and unnecessary parallel you are making here. Lets stick to the point.
    Yes, it would be different, but not because the federal government would be there quicker. It will be because the people in the neighborhoods are much better able to take care of themselves. California has spent a lot of money on disaster preparadness.

    The topic at hand was hurricane relief. You are the one that injected Marxist poison.

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