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  1. #341  
    Quote Originally Posted by emair
    ...... But shame on them all for claiming they didn't know the storm was coming and staying in New Orleans.
    There is plenty of shame to go around. However, there is no shame in being poor. These are people who sought shelter in the only place available to them. They are not claiming ignorance, only poverty. The definition of poor is not having the discretion, for example to evacuate, that is available to the non-poor. I can assure you that those left behind in the evacuation did not include any Treo owners.

    I am certain that they feel the shame that you would have them feel but they do not deserve it. They are victims of circumstances, indeed force majeure, for which they bear no responsibility.
    Last edited by whmurray; 09/01/2005 at 01:19 PM.
  2. #342  
    the looting man...its just...appauling...in times like this people should be helping people...but alas such is not the case...crews are trying to fix things, and you should get out of their way, but instead you stay and loot...not cool man
  3. #343  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    911 was an enormous national tragedy, but I think that this distaster is so large in scope that it will dwarf what happened in New York. The water hasnt started to go down, and you are pointing fingers already. There is a local government in NO as well as the State of Lousiana. In other words, there is a whole line of people that maybe could ahve done things differently before you even get to the Feds.
    It's no use Claire. Some people just love to blame their political enemies for everything imaginable.

    Does anyone have a clue logistically how hard it would be to go door to door checking to see if every single person was evac'ed? How and where will you get the buses and vehicles to move them? You don't have enough time.

    And move them where?? Obviously they thought the Superdome would work. It didn't.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  4. #344  
    What really is sad that we as a country can easily help other nations during a tragedy (tsunami) but when it's in our backyard we can't even drop off supplies, food, help the injured. All we can say is "A lot of help is coming."
  5. #345  
    Quote Originally Posted by Hizd4Life
    What really is sad that we as a country can easily help other nations during a tragedy (tsunami) but when it's in our backyard we can't even drop off supplies, food, help the injured. All we can say is "A lot of help is coming."
    Uhhh...what do you think we said to the Tsunami victims? Do you think we put everything in teleporters and beamed them over?
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  6. NRG
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    #346  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    It's definitely getting worse over there. I sincerely hope that everyone will be evacuated soon and order will be restored.

    http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/loc...home-headlines
    JMill, come on guy, give us some clips of the article. Some of us are lazy.
  7. #347  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    911 was an enormous national tragedy, but I think that this distaster is so large in scope that it will dwarf what happened in New York. The water hasnt started to go down, and you are pointing fingers already. There is a local government in NO as well as the State of Lousiana. In other words, there is a whole line of people that maybe could ahve done things differently before you even get to the Feds.

    "...After all, when you build a city below sea level, relying on human engineering to hold back the forces of nature, from the mighty Mississippi River to the Gulf of Mexico, disaster is bound to strike one day. And messing with nature up and down the Mississippi over time has reduced the flow of silt into the river delta, leaving New Orleans gradually more exposed to stormy gulf waters.

    ...the two levees collapsed because of inexcusable neglect by the federal government. Since 1995, when flooding from a storm killed six people, public officials, newspaper editorial pages and even the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers had begged Washington to fully fund the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, or SELA. "
    Not to draw detailed conclusions but I couldn't help but notice "SELA" reminds me of Selah.
    Selah
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
    Selah ( Hebrew: סלה) meaning "pause, reflection", within the context of a prayer or psalms, is similar in purpose to Amen in that it stresses the importance of the preceding passage.

    In this way, Selah is thought to infer that one should pause and reflect on what has been said.
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  8. #348  
    *LOOT* Yes they are looting but if people are looting for food, water and things that fill the "NEED" catagory then I don't blame them for that. You put yourself in the shoe of a father that has kids not to mention baby/toddler that has not eaten any food for 2-3 days. I would be out there "looting" also! Why can't they just drop off supplies like they did to the tsunami victoms?
  9. #349  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    I respectfully suggest that you do not know where of you speak.
    Point taken and comment withdrawn. My only experience here is second hand from my Dad when we lived in Metarie from '73 to '75. I was five. What do I know?
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  10. NRG
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    #350  
    Quote Originally Posted by emair
    Sorry if this has already been said, but I haven't had time to read every post.

    I hope the country as a whole now recognizes how incompetent our mayors, governors, and President are. On day #1 after the storm, W should have had THOUSANDS of military personel (national guard, army not yet dying in Iraq, coast guard) already there. "Help is on the way" he said yesterday. Great. That delay will end up killing hundreds.

    As for the morons shooting at helecopters and starting fights at the dome, I doubt they will ever face justice. Let them return to the rocks from under which they crawled. Pure animals. What an embarrassment to us all.

    The looters are just trying to survive, and it is doubtful anything would have been otherwise salvageable at those stores once the water is gone. But shame on them all for claiming they didn't know the storm was coming and staying in New Orleans.
    Newcomer!! Did you donate?
  11. #351  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Uhhh...what do you think we said to the Tsunami victims? Do you think we put everything in teleporters and beamed them over?
    It seemed like supplies were moving quicker to them....
  12. #352  
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    Not to draw detailed conclusions but I couldn't help but notice "SELA" reminds me of Selah.
    OK...Thanks. Maybe we could have used a little reflection on the subject of the levees during the 90s and this could have been avoided. We'll never know, but at least "Help is on the way!"
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  13. #353  
    Wake me up when the internal fighting is over. But before I go, let add fuel to the fire and blame Clinton. He should of built New Orleans up at least 20 feet before he left office. Then we wouldn't be in this mess.
  14. #354  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    ......Obviously they thought the Superdome would work. It didn't.
    Well perhaps it is a matter of opinion but I thought it worked very well. No one drowned, was hit by flying debris, or died of exposure. That sounds like working to me. The problem has not been that the shelter did not do what was expected of it but that we have failed to provision and rescue the victims sheltered there. It is Thursday. Perhaps I am impatient but perhaps your standards of shelter are too high.
  15. #355  
    Buffalo Springfield

    For What It's Worth
    Stephen Stills, 1966


    There's something happening here
    What it is ain't exactly clear
    There's a man with a gun over there
    Telling me I got to beware

    I think it's time we stop, children, what's that sound
    Everybody look what's going down

    There's battle lines being drawn
    Nobody's right if everybody's wrong
    Young people speaking their minds
    Getting so much resistance from behind

    I think it's time we stop, hey, what's that sound
    Everybody look what's going down

    What a field-day for the heat
    A thousand people in the street
    Singing songs and carrying signs
    Mostly say, hooray for our side

    It's time we stop, hey, what's that sound
    Everybody look what's going down

    Paranoia strikes deep
    Into your life it will creep
    It starts when you're always afraid
    You step out of line, the man come and take you away

    We better stop, hey, what's that sound
    Everybody look what's going down
    Stop, hey, what's that sound
    Everybody look what's going down
    Stop, now, what's that sound
    Everybody look what's going down
    Stop, children, what's that sound
    Everybody look what's going down
    Selah
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
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    #356  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    There is plenty of shame to go around. However, there is no shame in being poor. These are people who sought shelter in the only place available to them. They are not claiming ignorance, only poverty. The definition of poor is not having the discretion, for example to evacuate, that is available to the non-poor. I can assure you that those left behind in the evacuation did not include any Treo owners.

    I am certain that they feel the shame that you would have them feel but they do not deserve it. They are victims of circumstances, indeed force majeure, for which they bear no responsibility.
    There are individuals of influence along with the poor stranded or unaccounted for in NO. Many of these inidviduals decided to ride the storm out as they have done for years instead of evacuate. I am not trying to sound harsh, but if you decide to live in an area that is subject to disaster (hurricanes in the Gulf, earthquakes in CA, Volcanic activity around Mt St Helens) then yes you do have some responsibility.
  17. #357  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Who here watched that show on...USA of Fox?...about 3 months ago that was a pretend documentary on a very similar situation with a huge oil shortage in our nation triggered by a massive cat 5 plus storm hitting nearly exactly where Katrina did? It was pretty interesting and prices topped out at around $8 or $9 a gallon. It tried to explore what would happen to our economy, our work force and unemployment, how it would effect our foreign relationships with other countries, etc...

    In their scenario driving restrictions were enforce (much like a curfew), people lost their homes because of unemployment, and China tried to step up and buy all the extra oil that was heading to the USA by over paying for the oil in a step to becoming a major super power.
    I just got a PM asking about the show. If interested here is what I found with a google:

    Review and Blog about it:http://blogcritics.org/archives/2005/06/11/074945.php

    Details:
    Oil Storm
    America's lifeline has been severed ... Premieres on FX Sunday 5th
    June 2005 8pm e/p

    "Oil has been the life blood of America for the past 100 years but in September 2005 a hurricane blew into the gulf of Mexico and severed the supply of oil to the nation."

    This is a dramatised documentary that asks what would happen to America if the oil ran out.

    The dramatic action opens in Louisiana when a hurricane hits the coast taking out a critical portion of the oil industry?s infrastructure forcing thousands to evacuate and costing the oil industry billions. As the financial markets spiral out of control and prices rise no family in the country is untouched by the crisis and desperate measures are called for?

    Oil Storm Category: Other
    Duration: 1 x 90
    Distributor: Wall To Wall
    Completion Date: Spring 2005
    Financier: FX
    Director: James Erskine
    Series Producer: Caroline Levy
    Executive Producer: Leanne Klein, Jonathan Hewes
  18. #358  
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    Point taken and comment withdrawn. My only experience here is second hand from my Dad when we lived in Metarie from '73 to '75. I was five. What do I know?
    There is a difference between living in a vulnerable place and having poor infrastructure. New Orleans is where it is because it was the first and biggest "dry" spot as one came up the delta. It has required considerable engineering genius to permit it to grow to its present size. Much of modern New Orleans is reclaimed from swamps and the lake and protected by the Mississippi River Levees. The system of pumps and canals that keep the city dry are an engineering marvel (look it up). Those systems are called infrastructure.

    The Metairie in which I lived was within the Metairie ridge and protected by the same levees as Orleans Parish. There was no Jefferson Parish Levee Board. Modern Metairie did not exist then. Modern Metairie is almost all reclaimed land. As more and more people moved to the West and to the East, the levees outside the ridges were built to protect those people. Most of them have been built since the 70's but before that there was nothing and no one to protect. Said another way, modern Metairie is infrastructure, created out of swamp by the Jefferson Parish Levee Board.

    My brother's house was across the street from the lakefront levee in Metairie. During Katrina the lake topped the Levee and it is likely that his house was destroyed. However, the levee held and Jefferson Parish is in much better shape now than Orleans. That is called infrastructure and it worked as designed if not as my brother might have hoped. (The 17th Sreet Canal is the border between Orleans and Jefferson Parishes. It might has easily failed on the west as on the east.)

    Now, one might wish that a modern city had never been built in such a vulnarable spot but I predict that it will be rebuilt in the same place. The levees may be a little higher and a little stronger but not so high or so strong that once every couple of centuries nature does not top them. It is hubris to believe that any artifact will be proof against everything nature can conjure. That does not mean it is "poor."
    Last edited by whmurray; 09/01/2005 at 02:02 PM.
  19. #359  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    I am not trying to sound harsh, but if you decide to live in an area that is subject to disaster (hurricanes in the Gulf, earthquakes in CA, Volcanic activity around Mt St Helens) then yes you do have some responsibility.
    Granted that there are more dangerous spots than others, but it would be hard pressed for everyone in the US to find somewhere where there isn't any substantial risk.

    Volcanoes: The entire NW with Mt St Helens, Mr Rainier (which is predicted to blow anytime within 100 yrs), Mt Hood over looking Portland, OR. And the N Mid West with Yellowstone National Park with it's caldera that has erupted with super volcano strength several times in the past.

    Hurricanes: Anywhere along the E coast and along the gulf of Mexico.

    Tornadoes: Mid USA.

    Earthquakes: Anywhere west of the Rockies. They say Seattle is over due for a big one and is one of the cities at greatest predicted risk right now. EDIT: and anyone along the New Madrid Fault in the MidEastern US.

    Flooding: Anywhere along the bottom half of the Mississippi River....or anywhere it rains a lot out of the ordinary.

    Tsunamis: Anywhere within 20 miles of any coast line or 100 plus miles up along any major rivers connected to the sea.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 09/01/2005 at 02:31 PM.
  20. #360  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    There is plenty of shame to go around. However, there is no shame in being poor. These are people who sought shelter in the only place available to them. They are not claiming ignorance, only poverty. The definition of poor is not having the discretion, for example to evacuate, that is available to the non-poor. I can assure you that those left behind in the evacuation did not include any Treo owners.

    I am certain that they feel the shame that you would have them feel but they do not deserve it. They are victims of circumstances, indeed force majeure, for which they bear no responsibility.
    whmurray, thank you for your eloquent expression of compassion. My heart goes out to everyone impacted by these catastrophic events, and those experiencing horribly desperate conditions. (And, yes, I've made a donation to hurricane relief.)

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