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  1. #321  
    Can anyone point to a hurricane where any local or state government arranged transportation for evacuation? Plus, where would they take them to?

    This is unprecedented.

    Plus, this metropolitan area has had a long history of VERY poor local infrastructure to begin with.

    No one is at fault for failing to plan properly here.
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  2. #322  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Whmurray, my heart breaks for these folks. I lived in Biloxi through hurricanes and evacuation orders. I have friends still there that I have not been able to contact. I know a lot of the people who are stranded may not have had transportation out but an evacuation order was given. The gov't did not decide not to evacuate people, the people made that choice on their own. We really can not expect instant relief, I know the media have been able to get in and report but it is a lot easier to go in and report than to go in with truck loads of supplies and evacuate those that did not evacuate prior to the storm. It is going to take time. We are talking about hundreds or even thousands (?) of square miles of destruction.
    I am watching a report by Tony Zumbado of MSNBC. He is describing desperate people. "These are the left-behind." He is not describing middle-class people who stayed by choice. These are people without the resources to evacuate. These are people who went to the Superdome. They went to the Convention Center on orders from the authorities to be evacuated. The government has decided to "halt the evacuation" for fear of them.

    Zumbado assures us that they are orderly and that they are supportive of one another. They are only hungry, thirsty, and frightened. They feel abandoned.

    Perhaps they are just acting out their anger. Perhaps they are not desperate at all. Perhaps Zumbado is their dupe. Perhaps they are a danger to others. Perhaps he did not see the dying that he reports. Perhaps he is exagerating in hope of a Pulitzer. Perhaps.

    But Thursday is slipping away. If Zumbado is right, we only have hours to save the most vulnerable of them. While they are waiting for "more boots on the ground," can they not air drop food and water. If they are afraid to use helicopters, can they not drop by parachute from high up?

    It is Thursday and for want of food and water some of these people will not live to see Friday.

    And if I am "emotional," so be it. If I am angry and passionate, so be it.
  3. #323  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    I think I have to agree with Barye.....on his last comment....I didn't see, though I could have missed it, assistance in evacuating prior to this storm. Just the order, or was it strong advice, to do it.
    The City of NO was offering free bus service to the Super Dome prior to the storm, but not out of the city.
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    #324  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    I think I have to agree with Barye.....on his last comment....I didn't see, though I could have missed it, assistance in evacuating prior to this storm. Just the order, or was it strong advice, to do it.
    I can not cite for you in this particular instance or any time in NO, but I know when I lived in MS and FL and an evacuation order was given/suggested transportation was offered to shelters or to an evacuation point north. I do not know on what scale it was offerred but I remember it being offered. I am not trying to put blame on the individuals who decided to stay for whatever reason, but I can not blame the gov't at any level for not evacuating them either.
  5. #325  
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    Can anyone point to a hurricane where any local or state government arranged transportation for evacuation? Plus, where would they take them to?

    This is unprecedented.

    Plus, this metropolitan area has had a long history of VERY poor local infrastructure to begin with.

    No one is at fault for failing to plan properly here.
    But this is a unique situation. They were already anticipating NO to be worse than it is now. They were expecting a direct hit from a cat 5, not a side blow from cat 4. They predicted water levels to be up 2 to 3 stories high. With the unique situation and location of NO it was all but certain what would happen.

    My only thought was that if there ever was an opportunity, be it the first time in history, to provide evacuation assistance this was a prime opportunity.

    I am not necessarily faulting for not doing it, but simply saying this is a situation where an opportunity to assist in evacuation prior to the event was missed.

    EDIT: good posts while I was writing mine. Good, if transportation was offered prior, then that makes me feel a lot better. Thanks for the update and clarification.
  6. #326  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    I think I have to agree with Barye.....on his last comment....I didn't see, though I could have missed it, assistance in evacuating prior to this storm. Just the order, or was it strong advice, to do it.
    The success of the evacuation prior to the storm borders on the miraculous. Cite me one other case in the history of the world where a major metropolitan area was 80% evacuated and where a large percentage of those left behind were successfully sheltered.
  7. NRG
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    #327  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    "All circuits are busy" this is what I got when I called. I will try again in a little while.
    Same outcome.
  8. #328  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    But this is a unique situation. They were already anticipating NO to be worse than it is now. They were expecting a direct hit from a cat 5, not a side blow from cat 4. They predicted water levels to be up 2 to 3 stories high. With the unique situation and location of NO it was all but certain what would happen.

    My only thought was that if there ever was an opportunity, be it the first time in history, to provide evacuation assistance this was a prime opportunity.

    I am not necessarily faulting for not doing it, but simply saying this is a situation where an opportunity to assist in evacuation prior to the event was missed.

    EDIT: good posts while I was writing mine. Good, if transportation was offered prior, then that makes me feel a lot better. Thanks for the update and clarification.
    Agreed. There were missed opportunities.

    I'm getting the idea that (like me) many just couldn't get their minds around the idea that this COULD really happen like this.
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  9. #329  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    The success of the evacuation prior to the storm borders on the miraculous. Cite me one other case in the history of the world where a major metropolitan area was 80% evacuated and where a large percentage of those left behind were successfully sheltered.
    Great point. 80% is incredible. No reports yet of folks getting caught trying to run.
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  10. cardio's Avatar
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    #330  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    I am watching a report by Tony Zumbado of MSNBC. He is describing desperate people. "These are the left-behind." He is not describing middle-class people who stayed by choice. These are people without the resources to evacuate. These are people who went to the Superdome. They went to the Convention Center on orders from the authorities to be evacuated. The government has decided to "halt the evacuation" for fear of them.

    Zumbado assures us that they are orderly and that they are supportive of one another. They are only hungry, thirsty, and frightened. They feel abandoned.

    Perhaps they are just acting out their anger. Perhaps they are not desperate at all. Perhaps Zumbado is their dupe. Perhaps they are a danger to others. Perhaps he did not see the dying that he reports. Perhaps he is exagerating in hope of a Pulitzer. Perhaps.

    But Thursday is slipping away. If Zumbado is right, we only have hours to save the most vulnerable of them. While they are waiting for "more boots on the ground," can they not air drop food and water. If they are afraid to use helicopters, can they not drop by parachute from high up?

    It is Thursday and for want of food and water some of these people will not live to see Friday.

    And if I am "emotional," so be it. If I am angry and passionate, so be it.
    I do not doubt any of this. This situation is horrific. Rescue has been on-going since Monday. The burden is huge complicated by thugs stealing guns and shooting at rescuers. If I could I would be there helping but I am on the opposite coast. I do not know what any level of gov't is doing but I really don't believe somone is making a concious choice not to help.
  11. #331  
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    .....Plus, this metropolitan area has had a long history of VERY poor local infrastructure to begin with......
    I respectfully suggest that you do not know where of you speak.
  12. #332  
    It's definitely getting worse over there. I sincerely hope that everyone will be evacuated soon and order will be restored.

    http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/loc...home-headlines
    I'm back!
  13. #333  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    I do not doubt any of this. This situation is horrific. Rescue has been on-going since Monday. The burden is huge complicated by thugs stealing guns and shooting at rescuers. If I could I would be there helping but I am on the opposite coast. I do not know what any level of gov't is doing but I really don't believe somone is making a concious choice not to help.
    They have clearly decided to halt the evacuation begun last night. They may not have decided not to provide food and water but they have failed to do so.

    These people are victims, they are not looters, they are not lawless, they are not people who "decided" not to evacuate.
  14. #334  
    Preparation for anticipatable events is one of the most important tasks of leaders.

    How they and the people that they apppointed BEFORE the crisis perform when a crisis arises, is a part of that.

    I don't like Guiliani, but he was cool, decisive and organized during that tragedy -- and never lost sight of the larger picture of his city while still addressing the details of the specific problems at ground zero.

    In this crisis preparation was inadequate, and performance has been abysmal.
    Last edited by BARYE; 09/01/2005 at 01:05 PM.
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  15. #335  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Preparation for anticipatable events is one of the most important tasks of leaders.

    How they and the people that they apppointed BEFORE the crisis perform when a crisis arrises, is a part of that.

    I don't like Guiliani, but he was cool, decisive and organized during that tragedy -- and never lost sight of the larger picture of his city while still addressing the details of the specific problems at ground zero.

    In this cris preparation was inadequate, and performance has been abysmal.
    So should we start figuring out if the mayor, governor, local Parrish Presidents are Democrats or Republicans and then start our typical Red vs Blue battle? I don't have much faith here at TC O/T in keeping things focused on the tragedy. I suspect real soon it will turn political.
  16. #336  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    So should we start figuring out if the mayor, governor, local Parrish Presidents are Democrats or Republicans and then start our typical Red vs Blue battle? I don't have much faith here at TC O/T in keeping things focused on the tragedy. I suspect real soon it will turn political.
    Will? It has...
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  17. #337  
    Sorry if this has already been said, but I haven't had time to read every post.

    I hope the country as a whole now recognizes how incompetent our mayors, governors, and President are. On day #1 after the storm, W should have had THOUSANDS of military personel (national guard, army not yet dying in Iraq, coast guard) already there. "Help is on the way" he said yesterday. Great. That delay will end up killing hundreds.

    As for the morons shooting at helecopters and starting fights at the dome, I doubt they will ever face justice. Let them return to the rocks from under which they crawled. Pure animals. What an embarrassment to us all.

    The looters are just trying to survive, and it is doubtful anything would have been otherwise salvageable at those stores once the water is gone. But shame on them all for claiming they didn't know the storm was coming and staying in New Orleans.
  18. #338  
    Michael Chertoff is on TV. It seems clear to me that he is more concerned about law and order than about succor. Please tell me that I am wrong.

    Alberto Gonzales says that "Security is a priority." He promise 30000 more troops. If he can move 30000 troops, cannot he not move food and water. If he can bring troops in, can he not move refugees out? He is also worried about insurance fraud and price gouging. He promises "to have the situation under control in a reasonable period of time." It is Thursday. Perhaps I am too impatient.
  19. #339  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    I suspect real soon it will turn political.
    We can only just go so long without our political bickering, fingerpointing, biased slandering fix
    Or else this will happen and would loose most of our addicted posters:
  20. #340  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Preparation for anticipatable events is one of the most important tasks of leaders.

    How they and the people that they apppointed BEFORE the crisis perform when a crisis arrises, is a part of that.

    I don't like Guiliani, but he was cool, decisive and organized during that tragedy -- and never lost sight of the larger picture of his city while still addressing the details of the specific problems at ground zero.

    In this cris preparation was inadequate, and performance has been abysmal.
    911 was an enormous national tragedy, but I think that this distaster is so large in scope that it will dwarf what happened in New York. The water hasnt started to go down, and you are pointing fingers already. There is a local government in NO as well as the State of Lousiana. In other words, there is a whole line of people that maybe could ahve done things differently before you even get to the Feds.

    "...After all, when you build a city below sea level, relying on human engineering to hold back the forces of nature, from the mighty Mississippi River to the Gulf of Mexico, disaster is bound to strike one day. And messing with nature up and down the Mississippi over time has reduced the flow of silt into the river delta, leaving New Orleans gradually more exposed to stormy gulf waters.

    ...the two levees collapsed because of inexcusable neglect by the federal government. Since 1995, when flooding from a storm killed six people, public officials, newspaper editorial pages and even the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers had begged Washington to fully fund the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, or SELA. "
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