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  1.    #1  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Please start that thread and share your expert wisdom on defense issues with us.
    No doubt familiar with my tactical expertise with artillery and my exploits in conquering europe , you guys think I might have some "expert wisdom" to share. (no more joking...)

    O.K. -- lets have a wide ranging discussion of what should be done to improve our military.

    Part 1 (Iraq Micro)

    lets start with the immediate problem of our soldiers dying daily in Iraq because they were not equipped with the armour their mission required. (Or as Rumy confided – “you go to war with the army you have, not the army you would have wanted.”)

    Premise:

    We went to war at a time and place of our choosing – it was foreseen by many to be conventionally easy, but potentially protracted and bloody. Junior, Rumy, Cheney, and the neo-cons anticipated perfection.

    They planned for a war where we’d be welcomed as liberators, the Iraqi oil revenues and aid from our allies would pay for the occupation, and our troops would be home or stationed on the permanent bases that the grateful Iraqis would grant us, after no more than a year.

    Within six months this fantasy was exploded.

    Most troops continued to ride in unarmoured Humvees for longer than a year after they began dying from IEDs.

    Truckers and convoy duty reservists had nearly no protection for almost 2 years. National Guard and ready reserve were forced to use “uparmour kits” – or DIY “hillbilly scrap” and sand bags, in a largely futile effort to protect themselves.

    Irregardless of the armour provided to the army & marine HMVs, they were – even after uparmouring them –- by design ill-equipped for direct combat and mine protection.

    Because of its flat unsloped base, the HMV absorbed the full effect of mines. Because it was not intended to be a heavily weighted armour vehicle it wears out quickly, and is notoriously unstable –- resulting in countless paralyzed soldiers injured from HMVs overturning.

    Suitable vehicles are made and were available for immediate purchase.

    One for example, is the S. African Mamba – designed from the ground up to be used in a mine-threatened environment. Its V-shaped underside deflects the power of an undersided explosion rather than concentrating it.

    “The design and composition of the hull provides protection to the vehicle’s occupants against the effects of anti-tank mines with charges equivalent to 14kg of TNT detonated under any wheel or 7kg of TNT detonated under the hull”



    It was criminally negligent to not get anything neccesary to protect these troops from the war they were in –- not the one Cheney , Rumy, junior, and the neo-cons fantasized about. This congress would have given any amount requested -– any emergency allocation for armour would have passed the same day it was asked for.

    This is unexcusable -- and unforgivable ...
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  2. #2  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Irregardless
    IS NOT A WORD!!!!!!
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  3. #3  
    "Over 1,000 Mamba’s are currently in service with the South African National Army" That is a really great endorsement.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE

    It was criminally negligent to not get anything neccesary to protect these troops from the war they were in –- not the one Cheney , Rumy, junior, and the neo-cons fantasized about. This congress would have given any amount requested -– any emergency allocation for armour would have passed the same day it was asked for.

    This is unexcusable -- and unforgivable ...
    I agree. In fact, lets dig up FDR too, since more troops died invading Normandy than have died in Iraq. Inexcusable how FDR and Ike allowed that to happen.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

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  5. #5  
    Barry, I'm disappointed. Thought you were going to have a real discussion on how things should go. You pointed out we should of bought African made tanks? That's it. If that is the only thing you got - I'd say we're on the right track.
  6.    #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Barry, I'm disappointed. Thought you were going to have a real discussion on how things should go. You pointed out we should of bought African made tanks? That's it. If that is the only thing you got - I'd say we're on the right track.
    I'm using that vehicle -- which was designed for a counter insugency environment -- as something that could have been immediately acquired to better protect our people who were everyday dying in unarmoured (and armoured) HMVs.

    If they were worried about the trivial effect that getting an emergency allocation would have had on the budget, there are lot of unneccasary big budget programs that should be cut. (I'll get to that.)

    there's more to come -- but I wanted to start on the micro level with Iraq since that's whats most immediately relevant.

    As we go on we can expand to the macro and talk about those larger more expensive weapon systems and the roles that they are supposed to play. (like the A-10 that the air force has regularly tried to eliminate etc...)

    I'm writing as fast I can --
    Last edited by BARYE; 08/27/2005 at 09:00 PM. Reason: fixed some big typos !
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  7.    #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    "Over 1,000 Mamba’s are currently in service with the South African National Army" That is a really great endorsement.

    To paraphrase: "should we care if a cat is black or white -- as long as it catches mice ??"
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  8. #8  
    So...you would have planned for this ahead of time? How many of these would you have bought? Can you just go to any old Mamba dealership and drive off the lot with 5000 of these?
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  9. #9  
    We need to send all the press home and let or fighting men and women their job without being videotaped every time they turn around. This is a war and the enemy does not wear a uniform therefore mistakes will be made and innocent civilians will be killed. I am sorry to say, this is unavoidable, but we need to stop videotaping it and making a federal case out of mistakes. This is kill or be killed but the press (and the left) does not see it that way. I would rather see Iraqi civilians be killed than our troops but the press does not see that way. The press thinks we can have a war with out anyone getting hurt. Maybe the press could arrange tea time for us.

    SEND THE PRESS HOME AND SEND MORE BULLITES AND BOMBS.
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  10. #10  
    I should'a been the Black Mamba.

    Last edited by TheLiveSoundGuy; 08/27/2005 at 07:52 PM.

    Thread Crapper
    ~ August 16,2005 Poll-Master ~
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  11.    #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLiveSoundGuy
    I should'a been the Black Mamba.


    I thought Uma was the Black Mamba ??

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  12. #12  
    Saving our soldiers, saving our military – what would Thaís do differently ??
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  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    I thought Uma was the Black Mamba ??

    Uma was the black mamba, but Vivica thought that she should have been the black mamba.

    But Thias wouldn't allow it.

    So she set herself on fire as a political statement.

    Thread Crapper
    ~ August 16,2005 Poll-Master ~
    August 17, 2005 Century Club Member ~ August 29, 2005

    I have a fondness for intelligence.
    I often black out when doing something really stupid. I supose that's why I'm such a danger to my self
    .



  14.    #14  
    I was going to write more on Iraq – but I’ll skip ahead to the bigger stuff that folks probably were more expecting from this thread.

    But I unless others respond with their own ideas, I fear this thread will be very boring -- no one is coming back with their ideas -– its just me spouting !!

    IRREGARDLESS !


    Weapon systems without foreign enemies -– weapon systems with domestic enemies:


    With the fall of the old USSR, there are few conventional forces in the world that are comparable to ours. China is ambitious, but its years, perhaps decades, from approaching our strength.

    Most of the threats we’ve faced over the last 60 years have been low level conventional –- and are likely to continue to be.
    Most of the investment that this administration is making in the military though, is for arms that have no real application to that need. Sometimes they even want to kill weapons that have proven themselves in that role.

    The A-10 close ground support plane has demonstrated itself repeatedly in every conflict in which its been used – Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, and both Iraq wars.

    The Air Force, run by Top Gun Tom Cruise wannabes, hates a role that they think should be performed by the army (with its helicopters and all.)

    Though its pilots appreciate the plane, and the people on the ground love what it does for them, there’s a lot of talk of retiring it. One the bases that they closed yesterday was where a squadron of A-10 is based: Willow Grove, Pa. (I used to live within bicycling distance of that base).

    Though closing that base is certainly justified (its too small to provide a target range or unfettered flying) they have also talked about simply retiring the A-10s based there, rather than relocating them. This is stupid, -- particularly since A-10s are no longer manufactured.


    The survivability of the B-1 flying Turkey was proven when ronny raygun resuscitated it from the dead, despite repeated efforts to kill it by President Carter and others.

    It was constructed at a time when neocons were arguing that the B52 could no longer reliably make a successful overland attack on the USSR – and that the B1 was required for that role.

    Never mind that cruise missiles fired from B52s made an overland attack superfluous, never mind that we already could rerattle the Soviet rubble with land & sub based missiles.

    The B1 was built for a Soviet enemy that has disappeared, its not as good as the B52 at delivering conventional bombs, and its much more expensive to operate.

    Should have been killed before it was allowed to be misborn.

    The B2 stealth bomber is arguably also a plane without a purpose. But its already built and paid for – there are very few of them – and it can sometimes perform a mission that nothing else can do. Though its obscenely expensive to maintain and fly – and a joke as to tactical application to almost any normal target – we should probably keep 6-10 of them active (and mothball the others.)

    F16 (lightweight single engine fighter / ground support jet. Relatively low cost – highly effective plane. The Air Force wants to retire it – though its aging, it continues to do its job well. Keep them.


    F15 big expensive fighter and attack jet -– as good if not much better as anything out in the world. The air Force wants to retire them to build new super expensive stealthier F22. Halt production of this unneeded program. Continue research at a low level.

    Junior’s new star wars2 fantasy. Constructing a system that has already been proven to not work, while it continues to fail test after test – no matter how intentionally tilted those test are –- is pathetic.

    The main justification for the system is to foil N. Korea. This is insane.

    They are as far from having an intercontinental ICBM as we are far from having a workable Star Wars.

    If necessary we could destroy their systems long before they threatened us.

    But that whole approach misses the obvious: they are an incredibly poor country –- whose only real raison d’etre is regime survival.

    They do not want much beyond that -– they CAN be bought off as Clinton was endeavoring to do.

    Junior came into office saying that he did not respect that deal and talking threateningly about them. The Koreans responded by actual constructing bombs.

    No matter how many millions we will need (together with Japan & S. Korea) to buy off the N. Korean threat, it will always be cheaper than the billions and billions needed building the joke of star wars2. (Does anyone remember how “effective” the Patriot missiles were ??) If we combine massive aid with intrusive inspections, N. Korea can be neutralized as an international threat.
    Last edited by BARYE; 08/28/2005 at 08:17 AM.
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  15. NRG
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    #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    So...you would have planned for this ahead of time? How many of these would you have bought? Can you just go to any old Mamba dealership and drive off the lot with 5000 of these?
    No, but they could license the design to us. Just a thought.
  16. #16  
    man, all I did was answer his question.

    Thread Crapper
    ~ August 16,2005 Poll-Master ~
    August 17, 2005 Century Club Member ~ August 29, 2005

    I have a fondness for intelligence.
    I often black out when doing something really stupid. I supose that's why I'm such a danger to my self
    .



  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    No, but they could license the design to us. Just a thought.
    And I thought the idea of this thread was, since the Left seems to know all the answers, that they would tell us their game plan for an Invasion/Occupation/Withdrawal. So, I take it you too would before the conflict began, gone down to Mamba's R' Us and bought 5,000 of these? Wow, I'm impressed that you even knew what one was, let alone thought to buy some.
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  18. #18  
    Well the black widow is sooo last year. Really!

    Thread Crapper
    ~ August 16,2005 Poll-Master ~
    August 17, 2005 Century Club Member ~ August 29, 2005

    I have a fondness for intelligence.
    I often black out when doing something really stupid. I supose that's why I'm such a danger to my self
    .



  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    I was going to write more on Iraq – but I’ll skip ahead to the bigger stuff that folks probably were more expecting from this thread.

    But I unless others respond with their own ideas, I fear this thread will be very boring -- no one is coming back with their ideas -– its just me spouting !!

    <snipped for mostly irrelevent blatherings...(should be in a new thread)>
    I guess we can all leave this thread now, since you still haven't given us your game plan.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

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  20.    #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLiveSoundGuy
    Well the black widow is sooo last year. Really!

    why did the monkey set the Thais on fire ???
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