Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 107
  1.    #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    The Emperor would NEVER say that.
    WRONG !! -- I chose not to invade England !


    You and NRG are taking the easy way out by saying that. All I hear is how this war is going badly, how it's mistake after mistake. I'm still waiting for either of you to tell me how you would have executed the war differently
    The premise of this thread is that both sides would offer their competing ideas -- their premise for what went wrong, their base for what has gone right, their opinion on how it should have been done -- and an opinion on what to do to fix things (if anything)

    Unless you accept as correct EVERYTHING I've put forward -- its pretty pathetic to hide behind the: "its your side's job to come up with a better way" answer --

    or maybe everything in Iraq is just peachy right now for you rightists ...
    Last edited by BARYE; 08/29/2005 at 07:40 AM.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  2. #62  
    Saving our soldiers, saving our military – what would you do differently ??
    I thought this was the premise of this thread.

    The beginning presumption being that they/it needs saving.

    Thread Crapper
    ~ August 16,2005 Poll-Master ~
    August 17, 2005 Century Club Member ~ August 29, 2005

    I have a fondness for intelligence.
    I often black out when doing something really stupid. I supose that's why I'm such a danger to my self
    .



  3.    #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLiveSoundGuy

    I thought this was the premise of this thread.

    The beginning presumption being that they/it needs saving.

    that big hairy guy keeps demanding:

    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    "... All I hear is how this war is going badly, how it's mistake after mistake. I'm still waiting for either of you to tell me how you would have executed the war differently."
    and I thought he was in charge around here
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  4. #64  
    Actually, I have no idea whatsoever what this thread is for anymore.

    (Maybe I thought it would be something totally different??)

    So...take it away Barye. I'll just follow along.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  5.    #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Actually, I have no idea whatsoever what this thread is for anymore.

    (Maybe I thought it would be something totally different??)

    So...take it away Barye. I'll just follow along.

    amongst this thread I have said most of what I would have done -- (had I been so stupid as to have invaded Iraq).

    I'll try to crystalize some of that into a single post so that you can all have a common target to tear apart
    Last edited by BARYE; 08/28/2005 at 09:02 PM. Reason: big typo fixing
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    I'll try to crystalize some of into a single post so that you can the have a common target to tear apart
    Please reconstruct your original theory and post to conform with the topic of this thread
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    amongst this thread I have said most of what I would have done -- (had I been so stupid as to have invaded Iraq).

    I'll try to crystalize some of into a single post so that you can the have a common target to tear apart
    Don't automatically think I'm going to tear into you. I just want to hear the alternate plan. How many troops? What are your assets? Etc., etc.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  8.    #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Don't automatically think I'm going to tear into you. I just want to hear the alternate plan. How many troops? What are your assets? Etc., etc.

    I don't mind being torn into -- at least then you have to articulate a SPECIFIC objection -- and I can counter challenge you to defend your better idea.

    This thread is just a "little" imbalanced when I am the only one generating ideas.


    Nevertheless:


    I’ll try to distill a few of the ideas that I’ve mentioned in this and some other recent threads.

    We went to war against a weak paper enemy lead by a paranoid ruthless tyrant who demanded unthinking obedience from his army and his subjects.

    Though I opposed this war, anticipating the disaster that it has become, it in truth, could have developed less catastrophically.

    Several times I’ve alluded to our war with Japan in this and other threads.

    That war began with what appeared to be a lightning quick devastating victory by the Japanese at Pearl Harbor, where they crushed our naval fleet.

    But Pearl Harbor for the Japanese, and our early easy victory against Saddam –- were Pyrrhic victories.

    In both, the real war and the real struggle, had only just began.

    Gen. Shinseki understood the problems presented by Iraq when he testified that he would like as many as 500,000 soldiers to secure Iraq after defeating it, to secure the aftermath.

    Because his “pessimism” and “old” strategic vision conflicted with junior’s campaign to persuade america that “liberating” Iraq would be cheap, he was effectively fired.

    The idiocy of firing the messenger that contradicted your fantasy of what the war and its aftermath would be like was compounded when the neocons decided that they should then fire the entire Iraqi army and police force –- as well as any civil service worker who had been a member of the Baathist party. (Which most HAD to join in order to get jobs and promotion.)

    The result is incontrovertible: more than 2 years in and we are struggling to create even a laughingly keystone cop police and army. One that for the MOST part does not show up at battles, is not loyal to the central govt but instead to their subgroup, and which is filled with insurgents feigning loyalty but who regularly leak secrets that compromise missions. (I can source all this if asked).

    We should have learned from what MacArthur did successfully after we conquered Japan.

    Japan like Iraq was an oppressive authoritarian society, run by a dictatorial regime.

    Soldiers followed orders robotically -– dissent of any kind was ruthlessly suppressed.

    A sophisticated “liberating” conquering general like MacArthur leverages that blind respect for authority, replacing the bad leadership with his own.

    He was so confident that they would obey HIS orders, that he did not disarm and replace them for weeks after their surrender.

    Like MacArthur, junior never had enough troops or civilian CPAs, to run this foreign country -– he certainly did not have many americans prepared linguistically or culturally to take command in that very foreign land.

    MacArthur kept the Japanese society initially intact, and gently guided it into reform -– while never making an arrogant display of himself.

    Japanese society was much more devastated after WW2 than Iraq -– but MacArthur took advantage of this to employ Japanese businesses and workers in the rebuilding.

    In Iraq we took over ministries, fired the police, the border patrol, and the army.

    We imported american contractors to do jobs that could and should have been done by iraqis.

    We made it clear that we were in charge -– that every thing went through us -– and that we therefore were also responsible when stuff went wrong.

    We were incapable genetically to appreciate the salient importance that islam has on this foreign place –- and the depth of mutual religious hatred and distrust and ethnic antaganism.

    Many iraqis now have only one belief in common -– a deep, visceral, loathing for america -– one strong enough to die for.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    ...Gen. Shinseki understood the problems presented by Iraq when he testified that he would like as many as 500,000 soldiers to secure Iraq after defeating it, to secure the aftermath....
    It appears Shinseki never used the figure 500,000. Unless you have some secret source
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  10. #70  
    I don't know that you can use the Japan scenario. But if you want, I would remind you that was a near four year conflict, with much more casualities than we are suffering now. And we did put the fear of the Mushroom into them twice. I know Ms. Sheehan says we're waging a nuclear war in the Middle East, but she is wrong. If we were to go Nuclear in the Middle East, the insurgents would be done. Unforunatly, so would everything else in the area...

    Also, there was a formal surrender. The Japanese saw Hirohito is a Diety, Saddam may have fancied himself a Diety, but his people hardly had the adoration that the Japanese had for Hirohito. He also had Stalin eyeing him. Surrender was his only option. It's a lot easier to occupy a country when there are formal documents stating "Unconditional Surrender."

    Japan also, in case you hadn't noticed, is an island. You didn't have insurgents swimming across the Sea of Japan to battle the American Occupiers.

    You can't compare the two scenarios.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  11.    #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    It appears Shinseki never used the figure 500,000. Unless you have some secret source

    I had thought it was 250,000 -- I heard Former Senator Max Cleland (triple amputee veteran) today say that Shinseki was asking for 500,000 (I think this was either CBS's or CNN's Sunday interview show)

    He said it more than once -- so I don't believe he thought he was misspeaking
    Last edited by BARYE; 08/28/2005 at 09:18 PM.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  12.    #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    I don't know that you can use the Japan scenario. But if you want, I would remind you that was a near four year conflict, with much more casualities than we are suffering now. And we did put the fear of the Mushroom into them twice. I know Ms. Sheehan says we're waging a nuclear war in the Middle East, but she is wrong. If we were to go Nuclear in the Middle East, the insurgents would be done. Unforunatly, so would everything else in the area...

    Also, there was a formal surrender. The Japanese saw Hirohito is a Diety, Saddam may have fancied himself a Diety, but his people hardly had the adoration that the Japanese had for Hirohito. He also had Stalin eyeing him. Surrender was his only option. It's a lot easier to occupy a country when there are formal documents stating "Unconditional Surrender."

    Japan also, in case you hadn't noticed, is an island. You didn't have insurgents swimming across the Sea of Japan to battle the American Occupiers.

    You can't compare the two scenarios.

    anaolgies are tools to illustrate an idea -- they are not meant as precise blue prints or templates.

    The point I made regarding the absolute surrender of the iraqi army remains valid as are the other ideas that I have alluded to.

    It is much easier to co-opt an authoritarian, top down army that operated out of fear -- than a democratic force.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    anaolgies are tools to illustrate an idea -- they are not meant as precise blue prints or templates.

    The point I made regarding the absolute surrender of the iraqi army remains valid as are the other ideas that I have alluded to.

    It is much easier to co-opt an authoritarian, top down army that operated out of fear -- than a democratic force.
    Okay, keep illustrating then, Leonardo!

    Still, I don't see the idea working. Would you agree that the problems we face (Militarily) are with foreigners, and NOT the people of Iraq? I don't doubt that there may be some left over factions of Saddams forces mixed in, but it seems this is mostly insurgents. I think that if it were just the people of Iraq, a lot of this would be moot right now.

    So I was merely erasing a part of your illustration.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  14.    #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Okay, keep illustrating then, Leonardo!

    Still, I don't see the idea working. Would you agree that the problems we face (Militarily) are with foreigners, and NOT the people of Iraq? I don't doubt that there may be some left over factions of Saddams forces mixed in, but it seems this is mostly insurgents. I think that if it were just the people of Iraq, a lot of this would be moot right now.

    So I was merely erasing a part of your illustration.

    please don't demand a cite -- but I'm confident that I heard within the last week from an american general who stated that more than 90 % of the attacks are IRAQI initiated -- IRAQI performed ...
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    I had thought it was 250,000 -- I heard Former Senator Max Cleland (triple amputee veteran) today say that Shinseki was asking for 500,000 (I think this was either CBS's or CNN's Sunday interview show)

    He said it more than once -- so I don't believe he thought he was misspeaking
    Cleland might have said it, but Shinseki never did...sorry
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  16. #76  
    The average insurgency (US revolution, French North Africa, Vietnam) lasts nine years. The occupation of Japan lasted ten years. We have been in Korea for more than forty years and Germany for more than fifty. Our troops are hostages to peace; it works.

    The idea that we will be out of Iraq in 2006 is worse than silly, it is dangerous. It is likely that we will still be in Iraq a generation from now. (I believe that it is part of the neo-Con plan.) The sooner we start admitting that and planning for it, the better.
  17.    #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    The average insurgency (US revolution, French North Africa, Vietnam) lasts nine years. The occupation of Japan lasted ten years. We have been in Korea for more than forty years and Germany for more than fifty. Our troops are hostages to peace; it works.

    The idea that we will be out of Iraq in 2006 is worse than silly, it is dangerous. It is likely that we will still be in Iraq a generation from now. (I believe that it is part of the neo-Con plan.) The sooner we start admitting that and planning for it, the better.
    In neither Germany, S. Korea, or Japan were we engaged in a counter insurgency.

    Nor are we involved in a counter insurgency in Bosnia or Kosovo.

    We are getting into one in Afghanistan -- though we need not have had we not been diverted by the Iraq catastrophe.

    The more culturally sensitive, the smaller the foreign footprint, the less provocative you become.


    Iron fist solutions to counter insurgency seldom works -- but nearly never by foreigners.

    (you guys should attempt to use Cuba and the Phillippines -- but then I'm not on your side )
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  18.    #78  
    If you all really want to look at the history of foreign attempts to coercively crush insurgencies, why not start listing a few --

    Let's start where the term Guerrilla was born -- (No not Insertion’s great uncle) -- Spain. I worked my **** off there to stomp out those bastards -– but the more I killed, the more that no talent ***** Goya painted those pretty pictures.

    Germany used UNLIMITED coercive force against Russia, Ukraine, Poland and Czechoslovakia -– with incomplete success.

    In France they for the most part allowed the French to coerce themselves -– with far better results. (though the partisans contiued to harrass the German Army till the end.)

    The Algerian campaign was only temporarily successful -– and the French left ignominiously soon after.

    Vietnam -- need I say anything ...
    Last edited by BARYE; 08/29/2005 at 12:12 AM.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  19.    #79  
    Yugoslavia was a bleeding ulcer for the Germans -- Tito's forces caused considerable problems for the Germans -- despite the brutality of their croatian allies. (ironically, Serbs & Bosnians were allied against the German occupation)

    Even more apropos to this tangent -- the struggle of the Japanese after their invaison of China.

    During WW2 most of Japan's army was tied down in the fruitless struggle against Chinese Communist guerillas commanded by Mao.

    Japan's attemmpt to conquer and colonize China was indescribably brutal and horrific. But despite unlimitted coercive force, including the first modern use of a WMD -- BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS -- the Chinese insurgentcy continued to be an ongoing terrible wound.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  20.    #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Cleland might have said it, but Shinseki never did...sorry

    Clairegrrl -- here's a CNN transcript of what Max Cleland said.

    I'm not disagreeing with you -- but its also possible that Cleland had a more direct contact with Shinseki (I understand that they are friends).


    (its about 2/3 of the way down the CNN page)


    BLITZER: Let's talk specifics, Senator. And before we do, I want to read to you what your former colleague Gary Hart wrote in the Washington Post this past week.

    He wrote, "What will history say about an opposition party," referring to Democrats, "that stands silent while all this goes on? My generation of Democrats jumped on the hot stove of Vietnam and now, with its members in positions of responsibility, it is afraid of jumping at any political stove. To stay silent during such a crisis and particularly to harbor the thought that the administration's misfortune is the Democrat's fortune is cowardly."

    Let's talk about specifics. What do you want the United States government to do right now in Iraq?

    CLELAND: First of all, in terms of Gary Hart's comments, this is not about parties, not about party politics. I was in Vietnam in '67, wounded in '68, lay there in Walter Reed, seeing my country come apart. I never want to see that again. Which is why it's time now for us to ask as a country of our government, what are you going to do?

    We can't just stay the course and be patient. Our young men and women are getting killed and blown up. And at the same time we're evacuating Walter Reed and the government says close Walter Reed. That doesn't make any sense at all. So what do we have to do?

    First of all, we should have taken the advice of the top brass in the military like General Rick Shinseki, the chief of staff in the Army, and put in the 500,000 troops that the Pentagon plan called for in terms of securing Iraq. Iraq is not secure. And it is so difficult that to operate with 130,000 troops there. That's one reason why the Pentagon has gone up to 160,000. We're going the wrong way.

    We need to have an exit strategy that we control, not one that's forced upon us. I went to Vietnam, I saw that exit strategy. It was forced upon us. We can't allow that to happen again. We need to control this situation, which is why we need an exit strategy now.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast

Posting Permissions