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  1. #41  
    The slope is still slippery. . . .

    #1. If I pick up $200 dollars in cash I find on the sidewalk, is it theft at that point?
    #2. If I decide to pocket it, and not even attempt to find the owner, is it theft at that point of decision?
    #3. If I saw who dropped it, but decided to keep it, is it theft then?
    #4. If I hold a gun to your face and say give me the cash -- is it theft at that point?

    Where in these 4 scenarios does theft start? Hence, why I called it a slippery slope. (Just for the sake of arguement -- I would consider scenario #2 "theftish".) (But how much of an attempt to find the owner makes it not "theftish"?)



    Interestingly enough, I did find $200 in cash on the sidewalk outside of a strip mall eatery, once. I left my business card with the eatery and the fact that I had found "some" cash on the sidewalk. Sure enough, I got a call 4 hours later from a very grateful individual. (Who, I determined to my satisfaction was the rightful owner.) (Amount, denominations, condition, et cetera. . . .)
    Last edited by gtwo; 08/30/2005 at 10:24 AM.
  2. #42  
    Glad to hear you did the right thing, Perry. Must be because you're from West Michigan.

    IMHO, you must reasonably make an attempt to return the goods to the rightful owner. But that's the real question.....what's "reasonable"? Also, reasonable for 20 cents may be different than what's reasonable for 200 dollars.

    Let your concience be your guide.

    ...and may the force be with you

    -jeff
    -jeff

    ...the Truth will set you free!
  3. #43  
    But a Treo, @ $600 a pop, that makes it Grand theft/Larceny...I think.

    Thread Crapper
    ~ August 16,2005 Poll-Master ~
    August 17, 2005 Century Club Member ~ August 29, 2005

    I have a fondness for intelligence.
    I often black out when doing something really stupid. I supose that's why I'm such a danger to my self
    .



  4. #44  
    Hey, Jeff. Thanks. (I noticed the Muskegon earlier in the thread.)

    We may have carried this thread into "Chat" or "Off Topic" by now.

    Cheers, Perry.
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLiveSoundGuy
    But a Treo, @ $600 a pop, that makes it Grand theft/Larceny...I think.
    Granted, the dollar amount does put it there, but what if our "finder" is still "attempting"?
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by Perry Holden
    The slope is still slippery. . . .

    #1. If I pick up $200 dollars in cash I find on the sidewalk, is it theft at that point?
    #2. If I decide to pocket it, and not even attempt to find the owner, is it theft at that point of decision?
    #3. If I saw who dropped it, but decided to keep it, is it theft then?
    #4. If I hold a gun to your face and say give me the cash -- is it theft at that point?

    Where in these 4 scenarios does theft start? Hence, why I called it a slippery slope. (Just for the sake of arguement -- I would consider scenario #2 "theftish".) (But how much of an attempt to find the owner makes it not "theftish"?)
    No slippery slope here. You hit a cliff along about #3. American Heritiage defines steal as "To take (the property of another) without right or permission."

    I agree that the first two depend on the situation. Did you find the item in a place that has a mechanism to link lost items with the people who lost them? In the example of this thread, it was definitely theft. His 650 didn't just disappear. He was in a store, which is setup to connect lost items with their owner. The person who picked it up, ignored this ability and decided to keep it for themselves... that's theft.

    As t-bone said, if there is a reasonable way to reconnect the item and you ignore that, it is theft. If you directly see the person, that is definitely theft. #4 is obvious.
  7. #47  
    There is no way that the finder is still attempting. You can rule that out within the first 2 hours. All the finder has to do is look at the Contacts and start looking for numbers in there and start calling. Or leave the phone on for the person who lost it to call them. Or they could have returned it to a Cingular store.
  8. #48  
    Well there's still no proof of anything other than a reported loss.
    It is unknown if it was taken, lost, picked up by a child, perhaps.

    We don't even know if there was proof of ownership to begin with. (though I believe his story) Is it not possible it was scam on the store to begin with?

    I'm not sure which dictionary our Supreme Court uses to define theft, but I would like to think that proof still weighs heavier than speculation.

    Too many angles on this one.
    Sorry for your loss, but this is why we have insurance.

    Thread Crapper
    ~ August 16,2005 Poll-Master ~
    August 17, 2005 Century Club Member ~ August 29, 2005

    I have a fondness for intelligence.
    I often black out when doing something really stupid. I supose that's why I'm such a danger to my self
    .



  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLiveSoundGuy
    Well there's still no proof of anything other than a reported loss.
    It is unknown if it was taken, lost, picked up by a child, perhaps.

    We don't even know if there was proof of ownership to begin with. (though I believe his story) Is it not possible it was scam on the store to begin with?

    I'm not sure which dictionary our Supreme Court uses to define theft, but I would like to think that proof still weighs heavier than speculation.

    Too many angles on this one.
    Sorry for your loss, but this is why we have insurance.
    This must have been one important Treo to go all the way up the Supreme Court! The burden of proof has nothing to do with using deductive reasoning to determine if a crime was committed, which is what I was doing. I did not blame someone in particular with the crime.

    If the guy is telling the truth, there are not very many options. You say lost... lost where? He was in a store and left it on a chair with lots of people around. He went back to look and the 650 was gone. Unless a coyote walked in and drug it back to its den, reason leads you to believe that someone took it. If a child grabbed it, I think a parent or guardian would notice a $600 phone.

    Sorry, I just don't see too many angles. If the guy is telling the truth with his story and he didn't actually drop it somewhere else, someone has his 650.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by lazieboss
    i have such anger and my pride is telling me to steal whoevers cellphone i see lying around because hey if someone did it to me, i should do the same.
    Your PRIDE tells you to steal somebody elses cellphone because your's was stolen? Sounds more like poorly developed sense of justice to me...
    Quote Originally Posted by lazieboss
    i am so mad, angry, dissapointed, sad, devastated, all these emotions in one, i cant even explain it. i cant get that day out of my head, its sooo horrible!!! well i hope i can get over this loss, but it sure will take a long time!
    Maybe you will start to feel better after thinking about some other things which could also have happened to you, like realising you are severely ill, losing a loved one in a car accident, losing everything you ever owned including your home and some of your relatives in a hurricane... like really bad things, not losing something a silly as a Treo, something that can be replaced by one week of work or so...

    Sorry about your loss, but it is just a phone, a phone you don't even really need to live your life.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by TreoBeard
    This must have been one important Treo to go all the way up the Supreme Court! The burden of proof has nothing to do with using deductive reasoning to determine if a crime was committed, which is what I was doing. I did not blame someone in particular with the crime.

    If the guy is telling the truth, there are not very many options. You say lost... lost where? He was in a store and left it on a chair with lots of people around. He went back to look and the 650 was gone. Unless a coyote walked in and drug it back to its den, reason leads you to believe that someone took it. If a child grabbed it, I think a parent or guardian would notice a $600 phone.

    Sorry, I just don't see too many angles. If the guy is telling the truth with his story and he didn't actually drop it somewhere else, someone has his 650.
    First off, this isn't an attack on you or anyone for that matter. So Chill.

    Now. Does the LEGISLATIVE or JUDICIARY branch actually use a common dictionary to define theft? Doubtful.

    Next. Implied, or deductive reasoning, still don't mean jack with out some sort of tangible hard evidence.

    Next. Where, he lost it is not relevent. It was lost before, it was MAYBE stolen. Therefore it's still lost. Not Stolen.

    Next. If you can't see angles in any laws, you would never make a good lawyer. No I am not a lawyer either, but it doesn't take much to pick apart ANY law.

    Thread Crapper
    ~ August 16,2005 Poll-Master ~
    August 17, 2005 Century Club Member ~ August 29, 2005

    I have a fondness for intelligence.
    I often black out when doing something really stupid. I supose that's why I'm such a danger to my self
    .



  12. #52  
    Well, we agree about one thing... I wouldn't make a good lawyer.

    My intention wasn't to get into a big open debate. It is really not that big of a deal... well except for lazzieboss.

    I'm chilled...
  13. #53  

    Thread Crapper
    ~ August 16,2005 Poll-Master ~
    August 17, 2005 Century Club Member ~ August 29, 2005

    I have a fondness for intelligence.
    I often black out when doing something really stupid. I supose that's why I'm such a danger to my self
    .



  14. #54  
    Guys, cool it.

    The man lost his beloved property. Whether it was stolen, broken, forgot, whatever; lets just have some sympathy and debate on another day at another thread.

    Have a heart -- make someone else feel better today. Someone else may make you feel better tomorrow.
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by RickLaw
    Guys, cool it.

    The man lost his beloved property. Whether it was stolen, broken, forgot, whatever; lets just have some sympathy and debate on another day at another thread.

    Have a heart -- make someone else feel better today. Someone else may make you feel better tomorrow.
    You mean like this?
    I'll take that as a challenge. Care to contribute?

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...ad.php?t=94337


    Let's see if you can take your own advice. Make someone feel good!
    Dare ya.

    Thread Crapper
    ~ August 16,2005 Poll-Master ~
    August 17, 2005 Century Club Member ~ August 29, 2005

    I have a fondness for intelligence.
    I often black out when doing something really stupid. I supose that's why I'm such a danger to my self
    .



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