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  1.    #1  
    Nothing to read here...just sterling leadership and success by American troops.

    http://michaelyon.blogspot.com/2005/...s-of-fire.html
  2.    #2  
    The link takes you to some amazing photos of US Army soldiers in combat. But there are no naked prisoners being abused, so you won't see this in the MSM.
  3. #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Nothing to read here...just sterling leadership and success by American troops.

    http://michaelyon.blogspot.com/2005/...s-of-fire.html
    Just in case you got a wrong impression: nobody, certainly not I, ever said the soldiers in Iraq do a bad job. They don't, I am sure the overwhelming majority does the best possible job imaginable.

    But even the best army cannot compensate for a flawed strategy. They cannot take away inexistent WMDs and they cannot make the world safer from Islamistic terrorists if none were there at the beginning of the occupation. 150,000 soldiers also cannot turn a country like Iraq into a democracy. That's not their fault, but it is reality.

    Do you think the Shiites in the South and the Kurds in the North will share the oil and the power in their respective parts of Iraq with the Sunni Iraqis in the middle? It doesn't look like it, does it? Saddam had to kill thousands and thousands of both groups in order to keep upright this totally artificial construct called Iraq.

    A democratic, unified Iraq would be a great thing. But it doesn't look as if this is what is going to happen, judging from the background and the history of Iraq, and also from the course of events of the past two plus years.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Nothing to read here...just sterling leadership and success by American troops.

    http://michaelyon.blogspot.com/2005/...s-of-fire.html
    Our troops will succeed in the tasks assigned to them within this overall catstrophe. It's not their fault the plan was flawed from the beginning and unworthy of putting them in harms way.
  5.    #5  
    Right. Our troops succeeding is a given, so there is no need for the media to cover their success.

    Ernie Pyle is spinning in his grave.
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Right. Our troops succeeding is a given, so there is no need for the media to cover their success.

    Ernie Pyle is spinning in his grave.
    Right now the media is focused on the success of an Iraqi national constitution which relates directly to getting our people's asses back here.
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Right now the media is focused on the success of an Iraqi national constitution which relates directly to getting our people's asses back here.
    Still doesn't mean they can't share success stories from our troops.
  8.    #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Right now the media is focused on the success of an Iraqi national constitution which relates directly to getting our people's asses back here.
    BS. Pure, utter, contemptous BS.

    Our guys have been there for YEARS. When was the last time you saw a story like this? Let me help. Never.

    Just a few weeks ago the NYT ran what should have been a parody piece about how stories of heroism aren't coming from this war. This, from the paper of record. (You can bet that if US soldiers had some naked Iraqis in a dogpile that it would be page 1, above the fold.) A simple blogger is kicking their MSM ***...Yon should win a Pullitzer for the reporting he's done and the pictures he's taken.

    Meanwhile there is all sorts or press available for a deranged, leftist anti-Semite that called the killers of her son "freedom fighters".
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    BS. Pure, utter, contemptous BS.

    Our guys have been there for YEARS. When was the last time you saw a story like this? Let me help. Never.

    Just a few weeks ago the NYT ran what should have been a parody piece about how stories of heroism aren't coming from this war. This, from the paper of record. (You can bet that if US soldiers had some naked Iraqis in a dogpile that it would be page 1, above the fold.) A simple blogger is kicking their MSM ***...Yon should win a Pullitzer for the reporting he's done and the pictures he's taken.

    Meanwhile there is all sorts or press available for a deranged, leftist anti-Semite that called the killers of her son "freedom fighters".
    I agree. I have followed his blog for the past month or so. (I think maybe you may have linked him earlier...)

    Kid's got guts.
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  10.    #10  
    Wait...I stand corrected. Here was an excellent special on I/3/5 in Fallujah last fall....

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,165513,00.html

    But it doesn't really count since it is from Faux News, right?

    I met Brian Chontosh, the company commander of this unit last week. Quiet, unassuming guy that single-handledly killed more Fedayeen than the plague. Somehow that bit of heroism never quite made it into the MSM.
  11. #11  
    Tks for the link 1911sforever. Brave souls.
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  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Right. Our troops succeeding is a given, so there is no need for the media to cover their success.
    Define "success" in the case of Iraq/the troops in Iraq.

    As mentioned before the troops do a great job. They reach the tactical goals with great skill and determination. But that alone will not lead to "success" - whatever that may be. It would be interesting to know what you (or others) would consider "success" and what would be "failure", because only then one can determine whether it was worth sending troops to Iraq.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  13. NRG
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    #13  
    Frontline has to be one of the best shows in production, that I have ever seen.
  14.    #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Frontline has to be one of the best shows in production, that I have ever seen.
    Uh, this is reporting from the front lines...not taxpayer subsidized pinko commie PBS.
  15. NRG
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    #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    not taxpayer subsidized pinko commie PBS.
    Vitriol!

    My mistake anyways.
  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Define "success" in the case of Iraq/the troops in Iraq.

    As mentioned before the troops do a great job. They reach the tactical goals with great skill and determination. But that alone will not lead to "success" - whatever that may be. It would be interesting to know what you (or others) would consider "success" and what would be "failure", because only then one can determine whether it was worth sending troops to Iraq.
    Please read (or re-read) my 40 plus posts in the NRG's Good/Bad Iraq thread. To find success.

    Success is:
    • Capturing / Killing the terrorists.
    • Capturing / Killing the insurgents
    • Finding and destroying insurgents & terrorist's weapon caches
    • Stopping a car bomb BEFORE it goes off.
    • Bringing Electricity to a city that has never had it before
    • Offering paved roads to towns who have never had it before to improve their local economy
    • Teaching them and assisting in establishing an effective medical response infrastructure (hospitals, emergency rooms, training staff, etc..) especially when it is in places that has never had it before.
    • Getting clean water to towns.
    • Improving their educational system nationally and in towns that have never had an effective system before.
    • Having the Iraqi people vote in it's first free election for the first time in over 20 years.

    The point is there is success in Iraq, but it is not reported on. Many here have failed to recognize it, or at least takes a LOT of before they do.

    What many people fail to realize is that with each success the individual soldier has with helping the local individual Iraqis, is a successful steps towards success. The war situation we are in now, is not a war just in the battlefields. It is also a war to better the quality of life for each every person living there, it is also a war for social infrastructure. The insurgents are the ones who are bombing the electrical plants, putting us behind schedule. The insurgents are killing their own Iraqis who are trying to rebuild Iraq, such as bridges, roads, hospitals, etc... This is also a war on the way of life. Insurgents and terrorist want to make the people as measurable as possible by denying them every opportunity to improve their country. So each step on improving their way of live is a successful step that needs to be recognized. Each step to improving the infrastructure of Iraq, whether it is rebuilding or offering it for the first time, is a successful step that needs to be recognized.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 08/26/2005 at 11:23 AM.
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Please read (or re-read) my 40 plus posts in the NRG's Good/Bad Iraq thread. To find success.

    Success is:
    • Capturing / Killing the terrorists.
    • Capturing / Killing the insurgents
    • Finding and destroying insurgents & terrorist's weapon caches
    • Stopping a car bomb BEFORE it goes off.
    • Bringing Electricity to a city that has never had it before
    • Offering paved roads to towns who have never had it before to improve their local economy
    • Teaching them and assisting in establishing an effective medical response infrastructure (hospitals, emergency rooms, training staff, etc..) especially when it is in places that has never had it before.
    • Getting clean water to towns.
    • Improving their educational system nationally and in towns that have never had an effective system before.
    • Having the Iraqi people vote in it's first free election for the first time in over 20 years.
    Those may be positive steps, but it does not tell you anything about the overall effect. You call it success if, say, 1000 insurgents are killed. But is it really a sucess, if at the same time 1100 new ones show up? This is precisely what is happening.

    Apart from that, all the things you mention are not a goal in itsself. But what is the real objective? What is the state Iraq has to be in when you call THE WHOLE MISSION, all in all, a success? Is it a success right now? What has to change to make it a success?

    • Free Iraq from Saddam Hussein?
      That obviously wasn't the objective, because in that case you would have left about two years ago.
    • Save the world from Saddam's WMDs? If that was the objective, you could have left once you realized there were none, or wait for the UN inspectors to finish their job.
    • Iraq free from Islamistic terrorists?
      If that was the goal, you would not have had to go there at all, because there are much more of those in Iraq now than ever in the history of Iraq. CIA says Iraq NOW is the main terrorist training and recruiting ground for Islamistic terrorism, which it certainly wasn't before.
    • Make Iraq a democracy?
      That's not something you can enforce with 150'000 soldiers, no matter how good they are. The more time passes, the more you will realize that this is not a war between insurgents/terrorists and the Iraqi people, but a fight between Kurds, Sunnites and Shiites. They couldn't/cannot find an agreement on the constitution, which does not really come as a surprise given the history of those three groups.


    So, again, which conditions have to be met so that you (or others) call the invasion of Iraq a success?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
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    #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Those may be positive steps, but it does not tell you anything about the overall effect. You call it success if, say, 1000 insurgents are killed. But is it really a sucess, if at the same time 1100 new ones show up? This is precisely what is happening.

    Apart from that, all the things you mention are not a goal in itsself. But what is the real objective? What is the state Iraq has to be in when you call THE WHOLE MISSION, all in all, a success? Is it a success right now? What has to change to make it a success?

    • Free Iraq from Saddam Hussein?
      That obviously wasn't the objective, because in that case you would have left about two years ago.
    • Save the world from Saddam's WMDs? If that was the objective, you could have left once you realized there were none, or wait for the UN inspectors to finish their job.
    • Iraq free from Islamistic terrorists?
      If that was the goal, you would not have had to go there at all, because there are much more of those in Iraq now than ever in the history of Iraq. CIA says Iraq NOW is the main terrorist training and recruiting ground for Islamistic terrorism, which it certainly wasn't before.
    • Make Iraq a democracy?
      That's not something you can enforce with 150'000 soldiers, no matter how good they are. The more time passes, the more you will realize that this is not a war between insurgents/terrorists and the Iraqi people, but a fight between Kurds, Sunnites and Shiites. They couldn't/cannot find an agreement on the constitution, which does not really come as a surprise given the history of those three groups.


    So, again, which conditions have to be met so that you (or others) call the invasion of Iraq a success?
    Where did you get the numbers of precisely 1100 new insurgents (I call them terrorist) for every 1000 killed?
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Where did you get the numbers of precisely 1100 new insurgents (I call them terrorist) for every 1000 killed?
    He made it up
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    So, again, which conditions have to be met so that you (or others) call the invasion of Iraq a success?
    Maybe success will be that we give the Iraqi people a chance to have democracy. What they do with it from that point is up to them.
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