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  1. #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    Because they couldn't make it stick. What do you think the charge of "using false documents" to Bacanovic was for? That was the fraudulent sell sheet that that he doctored up to say Stewart really had a sell order with him if the stock hit a certain price. The prosecution knew they'd have a hard time making the insider trading charge stick because they knew that the false documents claim was shaky as well...and Bacanovic was acquitted on that charge.

    Besides, how do you think this whole thing got started??? Because she made some money in the stock market? No, because of how she made the money, and then lied about it. The SEC didn't start this whole thing on a whim, they knew she was tight with whats-his-name and she was bragging about it.
    Jeez -- I'm gonna have to teach a class in capitalism and law to this group ...

    The SEC has different criteria than does the US Attorney --

    What she did might be considered unethical, and improper for someone who was head of a public corporation and had formerly worked herself as a broker -- BUT IT WAS NOT ILLEGAL !!!

    The crime was lying etc. about something THAT WAS NOT A CRIME !!!
    Last edited by BARYE; 08/23/2005 at 05:34 PM.
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    #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    Hey Cardio, where'd your post go? I was gonna quote it!
    Sorry, went to add the addy for the cite and deleted post somehow

    SEC Charges Martha Stewart, Broker Peter Bacanovic with Illegal Insider Trading
    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
    2003-69
    Washington, D.C., June 4, 2003 The Securities and Exchange Commission today filed securities fraud charges against Martha Stewart and her former stockbroker, Peter Bacanovic. The complaint, filed in federal court in Manhattan, alleges that Stewart committed illegal insider trading when she sold stock in a biopharmaceutical company, ImClone Systems, Inc., on Dec. 27, 2001, after receiving an unlawful tip from Bacanovic, at the time a broker with Merrill Lynch, Pierce, Fenner & Smith Incorporated. The Commission further alleges that Stewart and Bacanovic subsequently created an alibi for Stewart's ImClone sales and concealed important facts during SEC and criminal investigations into her trades. In a separate action, the United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York has obtained an indictment charging Stewart and Bacanovic criminally for their false statements concerning Stewart's ImClone trades.

    http://www.sec.gov/news/press/2003-69.htm
  3. #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    she was not a board member.

    She was not an executive.

    She was not a family member of the above.

    She was not a broker.
    Again, I don't believe any of this matters. According to Cardio's (deleted) post, the SEC brought insider trading charges against her and Bacanovic right away.

    I am work for a fortune 500 company, and I'm pretty sure we've been told that passing anyone confidential company information for their gain constitutes insider trading, regardless of whether or not I make money on the deal.

    AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK, $acting$ $upon$ $confidential$ $company$ $information$ $is$ $within$ $the$ $scope$ $of$ $insider$ $trading$. $If$ $she$ $would$'$ve$ $received$ $this$ $information$ $from$ $the$ $FDA$ $instead$ $of$ $from$ $Waksal$, $she$ $still$ $would$'$ve$ $been$ $guilty$.
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  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Jeez -- I'm gonna have to teach a class in capitalism and law to this group ...

    The SEC has different criteria than does the US Attorney --
    Teach away...obviously the SEC feels differently than you do.

    SEC Charges Martha Stewart, Broker Peter Bacanovic with Illegal Insider Trading
    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
    2003-69
    Washington, D.C., June 4, 2003 The Securities and Exchange Commission today filed securities fraud charges against Martha Stewart and her former stockbroker, Peter Bacanovic. The complaint, filed in federal court in Manhattan, alleges that Stewart committed illegal insider trading when she sold stock in a biopharmaceutical company, ImClone Systems, Inc., on Dec. 27, 2001, after receiving an unlawful tip
    I'm back!
  5. #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    ...and had formerly workered herself as a broker...
    And she knew it was illegal, which is why she had her friend/broker Bacanovic draw up the fraudulent sell sheet!
    I'm back!
  6. #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    Again, I don't believe any of this matters. According to Cardio's (deleted) post, the SEC brought insider trading charges against her and Bacanovic right away.

    I am work for a fortune 500 company, and I'm pretty sure we've been told that passing anyone confidential company information for their gain constitutes insider trading, regardless of whether or not I make money on the deal.

    AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK, $acting$ $upon$ $confidential$ $company$ $information$ $is$ $within$ $the$ $scope$ $of$ $insider$ $trading$. $If$ $she$ $would$'$ve$ $received$ $this$ $information$ $from$ $the$ $FDA$ $instead$ $of$ $from$ $Waksal$, $she$ $still$ $would$'$ve$ $been$ $guilty$.
    forget what was alleged before trial -- IRRELEVANT -- what was she CHARGED with AT TRIAL ????

    The US Attorney could have charged her with having bad breath, hairy legs, and a face that only Tom Cruise could love -- but thats all just garbage.

    What were the charges relevant for trial that the judge would allow as credible ??

    Insiders -- especially people who have been warned that they're insiders are liable.

    But even small fry -- someone who prints the earings statement and used that info to trade before its release can be liable.

    She did meet ANY of these criteria. THAT WHY SHE WAS NOT SO CHARGED.

    DESPITE what FAUX news may have implied ...
    Last edited by BARYE; 08/23/2005 at 06:00 PM.
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  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    And she knew it was illegal, which is why she had her friend/broker Bacanovic draw up the fraudulent sell sheet!

    The SEC has a whole gamut of uncomfortable CIVIL sanctions -- NON CRIMINAL)

    A broker could lose their license, a Corporate officer could be forced off the board, made to resign their position, fines, etc.

    the company could be delisted --- big -- but non-criminal stuff...

    but I'm at a disadvantage here talking about your american laws --

    I know much more the French -- I wrote them, after all ....
    Last edited by BARYE; 08/23/2005 at 05:35 PM.
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  8. #108  
    I can't help jumping in..

    The reasons why the Republican/conservative viewpoint is so attractive and effective:

    1. Their media-slaves are so darned good at what they do. I listen to Rush for pure entertainment. I don't agree with his viewpoint, but his parodies etc are funny. The closest that the liberals can come to is John Stewart and maybe Al Franken (once in a while).

    2. All politics is local, and short term. The pandering viewpoint of the conservatives is effectively transmitted in the sound bite culture that has come about in the last 25 years. I hypothesize that if we were in the age of newspapers (instead of cable TV), it would be more difficult to sell a quick and dirty solution to all problems. Unfortunately, half the country has no time for a more detailed and nuanced analysis

    For example, there is no tax cut that the Republicans didn't like. Got a headache? Hair falling out? Cellulite? Here let me cut your taxes... I win the election, let someone else worry about the consequences.

    Hey EVERYBODY, even I, likes lower taxes. But the Conservatives won't explain what rising deficits will lead to, or the Govt programs that will need to go.Eliminating Govt waste is not enough to compensate for the tax cutting and spending binge by the Republicans. In any case, one of the biggest source of Govt waste is the Pentagon and DHS, which are untouchable.

    The sad fact is that everyone will have to learn the lesson the hard way, and the economics of the nation will have to become so messed up before the pendulum swings back away from the conservatives. Sad.

    In a democracy, people get the govt they deserve :-(
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    #109  
    She was charged initially. Charges were changed/dropped/added as with many cases before they go to trial. You are correct that the charge of insider trading never made it to trial, but that does not change the fact that she was charged.
  10. #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    She was charged initially. Charges were changed/dropped/added as with many cases before they go to trial. You are correct that the charge of insider trading never made it to trial, but that does not change the fact that she was charged.

    again -- if the prosecutor could have taken Martha to trial and charged her with child molestation or insider Munking, he would have done so.

    Unlike an indictment or allegations -- a judge controls what CAN be charged.

    If there is clear evidence that no law was broken, or that there is no evidence in support of a law being broken -- the Judge can throw out those charges even before any testimony.


    Amongst some on the right, there can be such a chasm between belief and reality.

    Unfortunately, belief can be far more powerful...

    disclaimer:

    I must again say that though I am the world's greatest emperor, and have written the laws of my empire -- I am not licensed to dispense free legal opinions ...)
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  11. #111  
    one more thought thought to add on this tangent:

    a lesson to be learned from what happened to Martha is to stop talking to police or investigators the moment you supect that you may be their target --

    She was not CHARGED with a security law violation -- but with lying to investigators etc.

    Karl Rove (and maybe Robert Novak) will quite possibly have the same experience.

    Any prosecutor can find perjury if they look hard enough. (But they can't find it if you haven't spoken...)
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  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    one more thought thought to add on this tangent:

    a lesson to be learned from what happened to Martha is to stop talking to police or investigators the moment you supect that you may be their target --

    She was not CHARGED with a security law violation -- but with lying to investigators etc.

    Karl Rove (and maybe Robert Novak) will quite possibly have the same experience.

    Any prosecutor can find perjury if they look hard enough. (But they can't find it if you haven't spoken...)
    So she's a victim? If she's too stoopid to know her Miranda Rights, I feel no pity for her. Granted, she probably wasn't taken into custody before the questions began, but still, why would someone, who no doubt can afford counsel not have an attorney present?
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  13. #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    So she's a victim? If she's too stoopid to know her Miranda Rights, I feel no pity for her. Granted, she probably wasn't taken into custody before the questions began, but still, why would someone, who no doubt can afford counsel not have an attorney present?

    was she questioned sans attorney ??? (I hadn't heard that, and honestly don't know)

    if she was, its truly incomprehensible -- corporate malfeasance that deserved jail and the 1/2 billion dollar fine she got.

    but I can also imagine her counsel asking her what happened -- and Martha telling them the gist of the events.

    They confer, decide amongst themselves that she has no legal culpability (she was not a fiduciary) -- so figure that she'd be hurt more by the negative public inference of her hiding behind the 5th. So they'll be good public citizens and let her talk to the investigators.

    Embarrassed, maybe Martha hadn't told them of the little white lies she'd asked her broker and his assistant to tell ---

    No matter the atmosphere at the time -- they still should not have let her talk to them...
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  14.    #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    No matter the atmosphere at the time -- they still should not have let her talk to them...


    Do you really believe that if you talk to investigators, lying is inevitable?
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
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    #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    was she questioned sans attorney ??? (I hadn't heard that, and honestly don't know)

    if she was, its truly incomprehensible -- corporate malfeasance that deserved jail and the 1/2 billion dollar fine she got.

    but I can also imagine her counsel asking her what happened -- and Martha telling them the gist of the events.

    They confer, decide amongst themselves that she has no legal culpability (she was not a fiduciary) -- so figure that she'd be hurt more by the negative public inference of her hiding behind the 5th. So they'll be good public citizens and let her talk to the investigators.

    Embarrassed, maybe Martha hadn't told them of the little white lies she'd asked her broker and his assistant to tell ---

    No matter the atmosphere at the time -- they still should not have let her talk to them...
    Little white lies she asked her broker and his assistant to tell. That is all that needs to be said on the subject.
  16. #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad


    Do you really believe that if you talk to investigators, lying is inevitable?

    I believe if you've done nothing criminal -- but you're embarrassed about something, try to sugar coat it -- and the US Attorney or Special Prosecutor don't like you -- they WILL find perjury.

    But it depends on what your definition of is, is -- ???
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  17. NRG
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    #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    corporate malfeasance that deserved jail and the 1/2 billion dollar fine she got.

    ...
    Half a billion fine !!! I did not know that.
  18.    #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    I believe if you've done nothing criminal -- but you're embarrassed about something, try to sugar coat it -- and the US Attorney or Special Prosecutor don't like you -- they WILL find perjury.

    But it depends on what your definition of is, is -- ???
    Gotcha it's the ASKERS who make the lies appear, not the TELLER.
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  19. #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Half a billion fine !!! I did not know that.
    If we're talking Martha, she got a $30,000 fine.

    Federal Judge Miriam Goldman Cedarbaum also ordered Stewart to serve five months of home confinement after her release and fined the lifestyle expert $30,000.
    http://money.cnn.com/2004/07/16/news...ncing/?cnn=yes
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    #120  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    If we're talking Martha, she got a $30,000 fine.



    http://money.cnn.com/2004/07/16/news...ncing/?cnn=yes
    But half a million dollar fine for a little white lie makes the story sound so much better
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