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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    ...exit timetable.
    How do you establish a time to leave when you are still killing and being killed?
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob-C

    (Classic Doctor Who moment...)
    Davros: "Have pity."

    Head Dalek: "Pity? What is pity? It was not programmed into my databanks. EXTERMINATE!!!"

    Davros: "NOOOOO!!!!!!:
    Yes a classic Dr. Who moment for sure. I agree with you about Davros, I mean Newt. But he is damn smart I gotta say, damn smart.
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    Yes a classic Dr. Who moment for sure. I agree with you about Davros, I mean Newt. But he is damn smart I gotta say, damn smart.

    yes they're smart. Damned smart.

    Rich conservatives have long wanted to hold onto their money even after they die.

    Most people aren't rich. Making the rich pay some of the money that they hid while were alive in taxes, has historically been a real popular idea.

    It has also had a partial democratizing damper on the accumlation and concentration of wealth, privelege, and POWER like has been seen for example in European, South American, and bush family histories.

    So what to do ???

    Rich conservatives hired smart rupugs to test market various words before "average folk".

    Turns out Estate tax = good idea.

    Death tax = BAD idea.

    GENIUS !!!

    Get all the shouting heads to talk about the confiscatory socialist UNFAIRNESS of the Death tax !!

    Lie about how it unfairly hurts the small farmer the small businesman, the poor poor ghetto single mom who won it big on the Lottery.

    Never mention that less than one percent of the population are ever affected.

    Never mention how the forces behind the consolidation of wealth are the same forces behind the consolidation of media like Faux Broadcasting, and GE, and Clear Channel, and Liberty Media.

    The same folks whose control of the media reenforces the conservative voices that read the talking points of the conservatives who wrote the laws repealing the Death tax.

    by repeatig and reinforcing the talking points regarding The Death Tax,they were successfully able to change the public's perception of it, and get junior and congresss to repeal it...
    Last edited by BARYE; 08/23/2005 at 07:20 AM.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  4. #64  
    Of course I agree with you Bayre. Convincing middle class and poor that redirecting money to the rich will help them too, that is a difficult sell. But hats off to the conservative infastructure, they've done well so far.
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Most people aren't rich. Making the rich pay some of the money that they hid while were alive in taxes, has historically been a real popular idea.
    Yikes!!!

    Call it an estate tax or a death tax or even a post-mortum tax, whatever works with your focus group. Let's forget about the wordsmithing (I know that's the point of the thread) for a moment and discuss the practice.

    Why should the "rich" be penalized for being rich? Why shouldn't I be able to pass along the wealth I've generated to my children, or to whom ever I designate?
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    Of course I agree with you Bayre. Convincing middle class and poor that redirecting money to the rich will help them too, that is a difficult sell. But hats off to the conservative infastructure, they've done well so far.
    You don't have to redirect it. The rich will always get richer. And the poor will always get poorer. There is nothing you can do to change that. You can either cooperate with this principle or you can get run over by it.

    Rich and Poor are mental states.

    As a result, if you take all the possessions from a "rich" person, it will not be long before his/her riches have returned. Lilkewise, if you give a lot of possessions to a "poor" person, it will not be long before his/her riches have vanished.

    Rich people tend to make wealth generating decisions. Poor people tend to make poverty-generating decisions.
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Yikes!!!

    Call it an estate tax or a death tax or even a post-mortum tax, whatever works with your focus group. Let's forget about the wordsmithing (I know that's the point of the thread) for a moment and discuss the practice.

    Why should the "rich" be penalized for being rich? Why shouldn't I be able to pass along the wealth I've generated to my children, or to whom ever I designate?
    Jealousy. Why should you have more to give your kids when I don't? That's the mindset. Give me what you got.

    Instead of worrying about how much someone else makes, and how best to confiscate it, why can't you people **** out and not worry about it?
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  8. #68  
    I feel my soap box coming up....

    Perhaps this is limited to "urban" communities (that's wordsmithing for economically depressed neighborhoods with primarily african american residents). Have you ever noticed how many new cars are parked in front of rental properties? Have you ever noticed how many children who are receiving subsidized lunches are adorned in the latest trendy clothes? Have you ever noticed how many of the children have on the most recent pair of sneakers to hit the market? Have you noticed the interest rates paid for loans (usually for cars, furniture, and other depreciable assets)?

    I speak of this community because I am an eyewitness. But, I know that the principles are at work in other demographic profiles as well.

    [/soapbox]
  9. cardio's Avatar
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    #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    yes they're smart. Damned smart.

    Rich conservatives have long wanted to hold onto their money even after they die.

    Most people aren't rich. Making the rich pay some of the money that they hid while were alive in taxes, has historically been a real popular idea.

    It has also had a partial democratizing damper on the accumlation and concentration of wealth, privelege, and POWER like has been seen for example in European, South American, and bush family histories.

    So what to do ???

    Rich conservatives hired smart rupugs to test market various words before "average folk".

    Turns out Estate tax = good idea.

    Death tax = BAD idea.

    GENIUS !!!

    Get all the shouting heads to talk about the confiscatory socialist UNFAIRNESS of the Death tax !!

    Lie about how it unfairly hurts the small farmer the small businesman, the poor poor ghetto single mom who won it big on the Lottery.

    Never mention that less than one percent of the population are ever affected.

    Never mention how the forces behind the consolidation of wealth are the same forces behind the consolidation of media like Faux Broadcasting, and GE, and Clear Channel, and Liberty Media.

    The same folks whose control of the media reenforces the conservative voices that read the talking points of the conservatives who wrote the laws repealing the Death tax.

    by repeatig and reinforcing the talking points regarding The Death Tax,they were successfully able to change the public's perception of it, and get junior and congresss to repeal it...
    OK, I'll bite. Who do you want to get your money/possesions/house when you die? Do you have a list started so we can sign up to get some of the stuff you have worked/saved to accumulate. It seems only fair that I get some of the wealth (regardless of how much or little) you have even though I have done nothing to earn it. Why should I use sound financial judgement and make my kids ride in a three year old car and wear jeans that cost less than $50 a pair or put any money in savings if I can whine and get your money when you die.
  10.    #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Lie about how it unfairly hurts the small farmer the small businesman, the poor poor ghetto single mom who won it big on the Lottery.

    Never mention that less than one percent of the population are ever affected.
    Two questions on this:

    1. Is it a lie that it unfairly hurts the small farmer, the small businessman, the lottery winner? Is the lie that it is unfair, that it hurts, or that those mentioned are not affected?

    2. Does a small number of victims make unfairness OK? (e.g. Patriot Act sweep and deportations)
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Jealousy. Why should you have more to give your kids when I don't? That's the mindset. Give me what you got.

    Instead of worrying about how much someone else makes, and how best to confiscate it, why can't you people **** out and not worry about it?

    I'd love to have some help explaining this to my well off, but selfish friends -- how this is bad for the america they love -- but I will attempt a start:

    One of this country's strengths as a democracy was the sense that the common man had an equal voice.

    That anyone could rise from a shoemaker to become rich.

    That wealth, opportunity, and influence was earned that we were not a class based hierarchical society where privilege, wealth, and power were inherited (as it was historically, in Europe.)

    The last 25 years have seen a dramatic inversion of this democratic idea.

    At about the time of reagan '79, the top 5 percent on average had 11 times the average income of the bottom 20 percent. By the year 2000, that ratio increased to 19 times.

    source

    In '98 the top 5 percent had more wealth than the remaining 95 percent of the population, collectively.

    source

    One of our society's mechanisms for sharing its burdens, and dampening the multi generational leverage that inherited wealth confers -- was the Estate Tax.

    It in no way made the children poor -- but it was a means of lessening their advantage and the weight the middle class citizens bore for taxation.

    I need help with the statistical support -- but the essence of the repugs program since regean has been to simultaneously remove both Capital Gains and Estate Taxes -- while seeking to enact what they call the "consumption" tax.

    The concentration of wealth, power, and influence that has resulted is irrefutable. The rise to power and influence of the repugnican right has followed.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  12. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    Two questions on this:

    1. Is it a lie that it unfairly hurts the small farmer, the small businessman, the lottery winner? Is the lie that it is unfair, that it hurts, or that those mentioned are not affected?

    2. Does a small number of victims make unfairness OK? (e.g. Patriot Act sweep and deportations)

    the lie is that when challenged they could produce no example to illustrate their "talking point". They could not bring forth a single family farm lost because of this issue.

    But they USED the farmer, small businessman, and ghetto lottery winner because they were more sympathetic and empathizable for the average person than say -- oh, the Chairman and CEO of Enron.

    (This may become a battle of statistics -- I need reinforcements if anyone is out there ??)
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  13.    #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    the lie is that when challenged they could produce no example to illustrate their "talking point". They could not bring forth a single family farm lost because of this issue.

    But they USED the farmer, small businessman, and ghetto lottery winner because they were more sympathetic and empathizable for the average person than say -- oh, the Chairman and CEO of Enron.

    (This may become a battle of statistics -- I need reinforcements if anyone is out there ??)
    OK. So you're saying that they lied because they had no data to support their "talking point" of real and specific damage to the identified groups. Sounds fair enough. Stating something to be true without a reasonable or provable expectation that it is true is a lie.

    What about those who are (proven) actually taxed with Estate/Death/whatever tax? I take it from your other posts that you believe that it is fair that this small percentage of our population pay more. It appears that you think it is very reasonable due to how much it helps and just the few who actually have to pay (CEO's, heirs, and such).

    Do I understand you correctly?
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    OK. So you're saying that they lied because they had no data to support their "talking point" of real and specific damage to the identified groups. Sounds fair enough. Stating something to be true without a reasonable or provable expectation that it is true is a lie.

    What about those who are (proven) actually taxed with Estate/Death/whatever tax? I take it from your other posts that you believe that it is fair that this small percentage of our population pay more. It appears that you think it is very reasonable due to how much it helps and just the few who actually have to pay (CEO's, heirs, and such).

    Do I understand you correctly?

    Reread my posts -- the more significant point I make is about the concentration of priveledge and power which is self-reenforcing ---

    It creates stratified undemocratic societies such as exist in S. America and Haiti.

    The wealth -- and the influence it buys -- gets the congress and presidents it wants, with one of its primary objectives being to preserve those same priveledges.

    Being rich does not exlude enlightenment and a love for american ideals -- Bill Gates' father and George Soros have argued similarly about the corrosive effect that the wealth disparity has had on our country.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  15.    #75  
    I reread your posts and my question stands:
    What about those who are (proven) actually taxed with Estate/Death/whatever tax? I take it from your other posts that you believe that it is fair that this small percentage of our population pay more. It appears that you think it is very reasonable due to how much it helps and just the few who actually have to pay (CEO's, heirs, and such).

    Do I understand you correctly?
    Sure, you are trying to make other points about WHAT their wealth does and WHY it is unfair that they exercise it the way they do. I'll concede your point. It still doesn't answer my question of what you think.

    "Is it fair because (among the other reasons you've clearly outlined) it only affects a few?"
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim

    Why should the "rich" be penalized for being rich?
    Why should the sighted lead the blind ?? why should young care for the old ? Why should the strong protect the weak ?

    Some of these answers may be found researching this old book I've seen in the drawers of motels....
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  17. cardio's Avatar
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    #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Why should the sighted lead the blind ?? why should young care for the old ? Why should the strong protect the weak ?

    Some of these answers may be found researching this old book I've seen in the drawers of motels....
    Close but not the same, your answer in your format should have been

    why shoud the sighted be penalized for their sight

    why shoud the young be penalized for beign young

    why should the strong be penalized for being strong

    But you do bring up an interesting comment in why should the strong (USA) protect the weak (Iraqi people)
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    I'd love to have some help explaining this to my well off, but selfish friends -- how this is bad for the america they love -- but I will attempt a start:

    One of this country's strengths as a democracy was the sense that the common man had an equal voice.

    That anyone could rise from a shoemaker to become rich.

    That wealth, opportunity, and influence was earned that we were not a class based hierarchical society where privilege, wealth, and power were inherited (as it was historically, in Europe.)

    The last 25 years have seen a dramatic inversion of this democratic idea.

    At about the time of reagan '79, the top 5 percent on average had 11 times the average income of the bottom 20 percent. By the year 2000, that ratio increased to 19 times.

    source

    In '98 the top 5 percent had more wealth than the remaining 95 percent of the population, collectively.

    source

    Again, who cares? So what if someone has 11 times as much as me? Unless that person is paying my salary, I could give a rats a$$ about someone elses money.

    The only thing even remotely noteworthy about your links and comments above was that it would appear that during the Clinton years, the rich got richer, and the gap widened.

    But again, stop being so damn jealous. People should spend more time worrying about themselves, and not on how to take someone elses money.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Why should the sighted lead the blind ?? why should young care for the old ? Why should the strong protect the weak ?

    Some of these answers may be found researching this old book I've seen in the drawers of motels....


    There is a big difference in admonishing the rich to care for the poor versus taking from the rich to give to the poor.

    As to the corruption that occurs in seats of government, that is a different story (also covered in the old book). That leaders will abdicate their responsibility and pursue their own gain rather than justice is a function of the leaders' greed, not an inherent characteristic of wealth in general.

    When leaders take their responsibilities seriously, the rich and poor get equal justice.

    Unfortunately, our justice system is no longer about justice but about process. So, when a perpetrator is found not guilty, defense attorneys claim that "justice has been served" (presumably because the process was followed). But justice is really served when the appropriate punishment is meted out per the law. The ability to get a perpetrator "off-the-hook" is a travesty of justice. It is under these conditions that wealth becomes a determinig factor in how "justice" will be carried out.
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Close but not the same, your answer in your format should have been

    why shoud the sighted be penalized for their sight

    why shoud the young be penalized for beign young

    why should the strong be penalized for being strong

    But you do bring up an interesting comment in why should the strong (USA) protect the weak (Iraqi people)

    we don't really want to get into Iraq in this thread --

    but ...

    When we used our planes to assist the people of Bosnia and Afghanistan to resist and defeat the tyrants who they fought bravely long before we arrived -- that was helping the weak.

    when we used the no fly zone to stop Saddam's attack on the Kurd's (which daddy invited) that was protecting the weak.

    When we invaded a foriegn country with our foriegn troops --troops who did not speak their language, who did not understand their culture --- when we did not appreciate the chaos and anarchy that we would inevitably create, when we did not anticipate the bloody calamimity that we would inflict -- that was criminal folly.



    when sacrifice is demanded, why is it the poor who are asked to "share" the burden ??

    Why is it fair that junior's daughters are preoccupied with a Houston bar crawl ...??

    while poor and middle class reservists and Ready Reserve and Nat. Guards are split open, their intestines splilt onto Bagdad asphault --- why is it they have not gotten the armour that the regular army got --

    why was it that rather than divert money from USELESS programs like junior's junior star wars fantasy, junior could not find enough money to buy armour and weopons required to keep our people safe ??
    Last edited by BARYE; 08/23/2005 at 03:59 PM.
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