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  1.    #1  
    I find it humorous that abstinence before marriage is characterized as going "against nature", while use of contraceptives is not. I find it saddening that the notion of unmarried people, especially teens, engaging in sexual promiscuity is accepted as "reality."

    So, I ask, how do we determine what is "natural" as opposed to "going against" nature? Or, what makes something a "reality?"
    Last edited by shopharim; 08/18/2005 at 07:13 AM.
  2. #2  
    Hi Shopharim!

    Two things strike me here. One, the song lyric "We did not start the fire. . . " and two, that there are probably 6 billion plus versions of "reality" in this world, not counting other life forms.

    Will there be only one "reality" in the next life?

    BTW, it's great having you in the TC community.

    Cheers, Perry.
    Last edited by gtwo; 08/18/2005 at 07:30 AM.
  3. #3  
    Maybe one way to start is to define what your morals are based on/come from?
    Palm III-->Palm IIIxe-->Palm 505-->Samsung i300-->Treo 600-->PPC 6600-->Treo 650-->Treo 700wx-->BB Pearl--> BB Curve

  4.    #4  
    Thanx, Perry

    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Maybe one way to start is to define what your morals are based on/come from?
    I realized after posting this, that making the sexual reference might skew the conversation. That was just the most recent topic that brought this matter to mind.

    Of course, I have never backed away from sharing the basis for my sense of morality. However, on this matter, I suppose it is the philosophical aspect that I would like to see explored. So, please allow me to reframe the discussion.

    I think I can boil it down to this, which I will dub Shopharim's First Law of Human Interaction:

    The social/cultural environment that exists at any given moment, in any particular environment
    is an effect of the collective decisions of those in the environment, not the cause of those decisions.
  5. #5  
    Depends on the nature of ones reality.

    Thread Crapper
    ~ August 16,2005 Poll-Master ~
    August 17, 2005 Century Club Member ~ August 29, 2005

    I have a fondness for intelligence.
    I often black out when doing something really stupid. I supose that's why I'm such a danger to my self
    .



  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim

    I think I can boil it down to this, which I will dub Shopharim's First Law of Human Interaction:

    The social/cultural environment that exists at any given moment, in any particular environment
    is an effect of the collective decisions of those in the environment, not the cause of those decisions.
    And, as a minority of the group start making decisions that differ from the decisions of the "main stream" of the group on a certain topic -- the social/cultural environment will change -- either by the center of gravity of the group moving towards the "new" decisions, or that the "new" deciders will be rejected out ot the group. In either way, the group changes and so does the social/cultural environment.
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by Perry Holden
    And, as a minority of the group start making decisions that differ from the decisions of the "main stream" of the group on a certain topic -- the social/cultural environment will change -- either by the center of gravity of the group moving towards the "new" decisions, or that the "new" deciders will be rejected out ot the group.
    That sounds a lot like these forums. But I suppose we are a mini social group here. As far a gravity, now that's another thread.




    are too.

    Thread Crapper
    ~ August 16,2005 Poll-Master ~
    August 17, 2005 Century Club Member ~ August 29, 2005

    I have a fondness for intelligence.
    I often black out when doing something really stupid. I supose that's why I'm such a danger to my self
    .



  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLiveSoundGuy
    are too.

    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shoparam
    I just wanted to nudge you in a direction that could help restore the relationship that produced a miracle only 3 years ago.

    I pulled the above referenced snippet from a different thread, which would have not been appropriate to comment in.


    Not to sound cold here, but birthing a child is not IMHO a miracle. It is a natural bodily function not unlike coughing, sneezing, passing gas, or the body disposing of anything it deems as no longer necessary. When a child is ready for birth, the body dispells it.

    Terry Shivo coming out of her comma with full and normal functional capacity, would be a miracle. But a normal birth is not.

    Wonderous, amazing, joyful, yes, but miracle? No JMHO

    Thread Crapper
    ~ August 16,2005 Poll-Master ~
    August 17, 2005 Century Club Member ~ August 29, 2005

    I have a fondness for intelligence.
    I often black out when doing something really stupid. I supose that's why I'm such a danger to my self
    .



  10. #10  
    Yet "the miracle of life" is in the main stream consiousness of our current "social/cultural" environment. Are you being a "new" decider?
  11.    #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLiveSoundGuy

    I pulled the above referenced snippet from a different thread, which would have not been appropriate to comment in.


    Not to sound cold here, but birthing a child is not IMHO a miracle. It is a natural bodily function not unlike coughing, sneezing, passing gas, or the body disposing of anything it deems as no longer necessary. When a child is ready for birth, the body dispells it.

    Terry Shivo coming out of her comma with full and normal functional capacity, would be a miracle. But a normal birth is not.

    Wonderous, amazing, joyful, yes, but miracle? No JMHO
    I was simply using his words to reenforce the value of pursuing reconciliation. He said:
    Quote Originally Posted by bigboy650
    My daughter is SO important to me, especially because it was a miracle she was even born, but that's another story altogether.
  12.    #12  
    But the reference to thread is most appropo to this one.

    One member alerts the community that his wife is leaving him. Several of the responses accepted that view as "reality" and begin "quite naturally" to give him advice as to how to best cope with it.

    I know that even the "worst" of marriages can be restored. So, I offered him an opportunity (and a resource to assist him) to exercise his ability to change the environment rather than to acquiesce to it.
  13. #13  
    I'm not saying that birth can't be a miracle. I just don't see "normal" pregnancey or births as miracles.
    That doesn't mean they can't become miracles.
    I just don't want to confuse a normal biological function, with our, or maybe the better word would be, my, understanding of miracles which may be the result of a Greater Power, Spirit, God, Force, or whatever description floats yer boat.
    Last edited by TheLiveSoundGuy; 08/18/2005 at 08:16 AM.

    Thread Crapper
    ~ August 16,2005 Poll-Master ~
    August 17, 2005 Century Club Member ~ August 29, 2005

    I have a fondness for intelligence.
    I often black out when doing something really stupid. I supose that's why I'm such a danger to my self
    .



  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    But the reference to thread is most appropo to this one.

    One member alerts the community that his wife is leaving him. Several of the responses accepted that view as "reality" and begin "quite naturally" to give him advice as to how to best cope with it.

    I know that even the "worst" of marriages can be restored. So, I offered him an opportunity (and a resource to assist him) to exercise his ability to change the environment rather than to acquiesce to it.
    No explanation necessary. You did a good thing.

    Thread Crapper
    ~ August 16,2005 Poll-Master ~
    August 17, 2005 Century Club Member ~ August 29, 2005

    I have a fondness for intelligence.
    I often black out when doing something really stupid. I supose that's why I'm such a danger to my self
    .



  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    I was simply using his words to reenforce the value of pursuing reconciliation. He said: Quote:
    Originally Posted by bigboy650
    My daughter is SO important to me, especially because it was a miracle she was even born, but that's another story altogether.
    Sorry, my bad. I missed that part.
    I suppose that birth had a different set of circumstances.
    Not all births are "normal," and some can indeed be miracles.

    My points remain unchanged though.
    Last edited by TheLiveSoundGuy; 08/18/2005 at 08:19 AM.

    Thread Crapper
    ~ August 16,2005 Poll-Master ~
    August 17, 2005 Century Club Member ~ August 29, 2005

    I have a fondness for intelligence.
    I often black out when doing something really stupid. I supose that's why I'm such a danger to my self
    .



  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by Perry Holden
    Yet "the miracle of life" is in the main stream consiousness of our current "social/cultural" environment. Are you being a "new" decider?
    Yes, I guess I am.
    Life in and of itself, IMO is a miracle. "Normal" Birth is not.

    Thread Crapper
    ~ August 16,2005 Poll-Master ~
    August 17, 2005 Century Club Member ~ August 29, 2005

    I have a fondness for intelligence.
    I often black out when doing something really stupid. I supose that's why I'm such a danger to my self
    .



  17.    #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLiveSoundGuy
    No explanation necessary. You did a good thing.
    BTW, I thought you input was a spirit-lifter as well.
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    BTW, I thought you input was a spirit-lifter as well.
    Thanks, That was my aim.
    Yes I'm a class clown, but cut me and I bleed too.

    Thread Crapper
    ~ August 16,2005 Poll-Master ~
    August 17, 2005 Century Club Member ~ August 29, 2005

    I have a fondness for intelligence.
    I often black out when doing something really stupid. I supose that's why I'm such a danger to my self
    .



  19. #19  
    Shop: How do you know this?

    "I know that even the "worst" of marriages can be restored."

    I'm am not a big advocate of divorce but I can invision a marriage so bad that it could not be restored (i.e. you ever watch those crime shows where the spouse tries to kill the other spouse?)

    My point is that I can see a marriage where neither partner wants nor desires to stay married. I am not sure one can say that they know it could be restored (unless both people are Christians/religious and 'give' their relationship over to God.) Which in and of itself is hard to do.
    Palm III-->Palm IIIxe-->Palm 505-->Samsung i300-->Treo 600-->PPC 6600-->Treo 650-->Treo 700wx-->BB Pearl--> BB Curve

  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    I find it humorous that abstinence before marriage is characterized as going "against nature", while use of contraceptives is not. I find it saddening that the notion of unmarried people, especially teens, engaging in sexual promiscuity is accepted as "reality."

    So, I ask, how do we determine what is "natural" as opposed to "going against" nature? Or, what makes something a "reality?"
    Natural in this context means "occurring in conformity with the ordinary course of nature" (Webster). The ordinary course of nature is not easy to determine in humans because all humans live in a cultural context. But it is not a far-fetched assumption that the normal course of action means having sex and getting kids after adolescence.

    In the old days, most cultures had a problem with the population growing (resources in short supply), so there was a cultural pressure to postpone sex and kids. Religious rules are an expression of that pressure.

    Of course also contraceptives are a cultural thing, no doubt. That does not make them bad per se. It allows having sex (which is a very strong natural drive) without getting kids before e.g. education is finished. Is having sex without having kids bad? I don't think so, why should it?

    What do you mean by promiscuity? It normally means having more than one sex partner, but it does not specify in what period of time. Most teens are not promiscous in the sense that they sleep with 3 different people per week, most teens live in serial monogamy, meaning they have sex with their partner only, but they have more than one partner in their life (one after the other).

    Is that a bad thing? I don't think so. I would not necessarily want my kids to marry the fist person they ever had sex with, just as I would not like them to have sex with anybody/without feelings involved. Sex is an important factor in a relationship, and I think it is a good idea to include that factor when making a choice for a relationship which is supposed to last (e.g. when one wants to have kids).

    However that may be, if anything of that sort happens (which is the case in about 99.3% of the cases anyway, in my estimate), I am sure they will be wise and educated enough to use appropriate protection in order to prevent undesirable side effects.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
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