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  1.    #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Shop: How do you know this?

    "I know that even the "worst" of marriages can be restored."

    I'm am not a big advocate of divorce but I can invision a marriage so bad that it could not be restored (i.e. you ever watch those crime shows where the spouse tries to kill the other spouse?)

    My point is that I can see a marriage where neither partner wants nor desires to stay married. I am not sure one can say that they know it could be restored (unless both people are Christians/religious and 'give' their relationship over to God.) Which in and of itself is hard to do.
    I know this from a couple of sources:
    1. There are three couples at my church each of whom were not just separated, but actually divorced and expecting no reconciliation
    2. I have read testimonies from Marriage Builders (the site I referenced in the other thread)

    But, the key is in your commentary. If the partners want to stay married, it can turn around. Remember, there was a point in their lives when the couple did not even know each other. Over time, they moved from that state to having and acting on a desire to marry.

    There is nothing accept a lack of willingness to work that could keep this from happening again.
  2.    #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    (unless both people are Christians/religious and 'give' their relationship over to God.)
    This can help. But it is neither necessary for success, nor a guarantee for success.

    Christians/religious can be just as negligent about their relationships as non-Christians/non-religious.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shopharim
    There is nothing accept a lack of willingness to work that could keep this from happening again.
    Well put.

    Thread Crapper
    ~ August 16,2005 Poll-Master ~
    August 17, 2005 Century Club Member ~ August 29, 2005

    I have a fondness for intelligence.
    I often black out when doing something really stupid. I supose that's why I'm such a danger to my self
    .



  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    If the partners want to stay married, it can turn around.
    That's a self-fulfilling prophecy. I suppsose it is indeed quite rare that two people divorce if both want to stay married.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    But, the key is in your commentary. If the partners want to stay married, it can turn around. Remember, there was a point in their lives when the couple did not even know each other. Over time, they moved from that state to having and acting on a desire to marry.

    There is nothing accept a lack of willingness to work that could keep this from happening again.
    I think that was the point I was trying to make. I see this as being just as difficult when only one person wants to stay married and the other does not. When the relationship reaches that point, I don't see how the argument is true concerning it being restored.
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  6.    #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    That's a self-fulfilling prophecy. I suppsose it is indeed quite rare that two people divorce if both want to stay married.
    Probably not as rare as logic would suggest. Wanting to do something, but lacking the knowledge and/or skills to do it can result in still not doing it, despite the earnest desire to the contrary.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    That's a self-fulfilling prophecy. I suppsose it is indeed quite rare that two people divorce if both want to stay married.
    No but in S.F. there were a bunch of people who wanted to stay married but the courts annulled them
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  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Probably not as rare as logic would suggest. Wanting to do something, but lacking the knowledge and/or skills to do it can result in still not doing it, despite the earnest desire to the contrary.
    That seems to indicate just a failure to accomplish something that you want...divorce indicates an additional volitional act that goes beyond just a simple failure.
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  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    This can help. But it is neither necessary for success, nor a guarantee for success.

    Christians/religious can be just as negligent about their relationships as non-Christians/non-religious.
    I think sometimes more so when they expect God to do all the work for them.
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  10.    #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I think that was the point I was trying to make. I see this as being just as difficult when only one person wants to stay married and the other does not. When the relationship reaches that point, I don't see how the argument is true concerning it being restored.
    The key word in my statement is "can." The "worst" marriages can be restored if both want the marriage to last.

    But even if both don't want to stay married but both at least are willing to entertain the possibility of staying married, restoration is still possible.

    I encourage a review of Dr. Harley's work (Marriage Builders ). He lays out a very practical approach to creating and maintaining the "feelng of love" which his research concludes is essential for marriages to thrive.
  11.    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    That seems to indicate just a failure to accomplish something that you want...divorce indicates an additional volitional act that goes beyond just a simple failure.
    We agree that divorce is a volitional act. But, as it relates to marriage, even if the volitional act of formal divorce is not carried out, the failure to accomplish marriage has the same result as if had been.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    I encourage a review of Dr. Harley's work (Marriage Builders ). He lays out a very practical approach to creating and maintaining the "feelng of love" which his research concludes is essential for marriages to thrive.
    benificial yes, essential...not necessarally.

    Love and marriage are seperate items.
    Love is an emotion.
    Marriage is an act.

    One can be married and not in love, just as one can be in love and not be married. They are not mutually inclusive.

    Thread Crapper
    ~ August 16,2005 Poll-Master ~
    August 17, 2005 Century Club Member ~ August 29, 2005

    I have a fondness for intelligence.
    I often black out when doing something really stupid. I supose that's why I'm such a danger to my self
    .



  13.    #33  
    I did not say merely essential. I said essential to thrive
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    The key word in my statement is "can." The "worst" marriages can be restored if both want the marriage to last.

    But even if both don't want to stay married but both at least are willing to entertain the possibility of staying married, restoration is still possible.

    I encourage a review of Dr. Harley's work (Marriage Builders ). He lays out a very practical approach to creating and maintaining the "feelng of love" which his research concludes is essential for marriages to thrive.
    Good points. I just assumed when you said 'worst' that by definition there were no feelings of wanting to reconcile.

    I am all for it by reconciliation by the way...my wife and I have been through counseling ourselves.
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  15.    #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLiveSoundGuy
    benificial yes, essential...not necessarally.

    Love and marriage are seperate items.
    Love is an emotion.
    Marriage is an act.

    One can be married and not in love, just as one can be in love and not be married. They are not mutually inclusive.
    OK. A more detailed response is probably fitting here.

    Love is an emotion. And, it intensifies and weakens in concert to events that occur. By "nature" we tend to gravitate towards things that cause us to experience more intenst feelings of love.

    Marriage is a state (condition). The wedding (exchange of vows) is an act that inaugurates the state.

    The state does not require love to survive. It does require love to thrive.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    I did not say merely essential. I said essential to thrive
    Point taken.

    Thread Crapper
    ~ August 16,2005 Poll-Master ~
    August 17, 2005 Century Club Member ~ August 29, 2005

    I have a fondness for intelligence.
    I often black out when doing something really stupid. I supose that's why I'm such a danger to my self
    .



  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    That's a self-fulfilling prophecy. I suppsose it is indeed quite rare that two people divorce if both want to stay married.
    and if both parties really DO care for, and really DO want to stay together, but have enough sense to realize that the chemistry won't allow that to happen without one killing the other? Happens more oft than you may think. The term "We're still the best of friends" didn't just come to be. Sometimes it's genuine.

    Thread Crapper
    ~ August 16,2005 Poll-Master ~
    August 17, 2005 Century Club Member ~ August 29, 2005

    I have a fondness for intelligence.
    I often black out when doing something really stupid. I supose that's why I'm such a danger to my self
    .



  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLiveSoundGuy
    and if both parties really DO care for, and really DO want to stay together, but have enough sense to realize that the chemistry won't allow that to happen without one killing the other?
    If there are really only those two possibilities, then either they stay together and kill each other, or they change their mind and decide that in facth they don't want to stay together, and they divorce.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    I find it humorous that abstinence before marriage is characterized as going "against nature", while use of contraceptives is not. I find it saddening that the notion of unmarried people, especially teens, engaging in sexual promiscuity is accepted as "reality."

    So, I ask, how do we determine what is "natural" as opposed to "going against" nature? Or, what makes something a "reality?"
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Natural in this context means "occurring in conformity with the ordinary course of nature" (Webster). The ordinary course of nature is not easy to determine in humans because all humans live in a cultural context. But it is not a far-fetched assumption that the normal course of action means having sex and getting kids after adolescence.

    In the old days, most cultures had a problem with the population growing (resources in short supply), so there was a cultural pressure to postpone sex and kids. Religious rules are an expression of that pressure.

    Of course also contraceptives are a cultural thing, no doubt. That does not make them bad per se. It allows having sex (which is a very strong natural drive) without getting kids before e.g. education is finished. Is having sex without having kids bad? I don't think so, why should it?

    What do you mean by promiscuity? It normally means having more than one sex partner, but it does not specify in what period of time. Most teens are not promiscous in the sense that they sleep with 3 different people per week, most teens live in serial monogamy, meaning they have sex with their partner only, but they have more than one partner in their life (one after the other).

    Is that a bad thing? I don't think so. I would not necessarily want my kids to marry the fist person they ever had sex with, just as I would not like them to have sex with anybody/without feelings involved. Sex is an important factor in a relationship, and I think it is a good idea to include that factor when making a choice for a relationship which is supposed to last (e.g. when one wants to have kids).

    However that may be, if anything of that sort happens (which is the case in about 99.3% of the cases anyway, in my estimate), I am sure they will be wise and educated enough to use appropriate protection in order to prevent undesirable side effects.
    Do I get an special TC award for posting the ONLY post in the whole thread related to the topic of this thread?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    If there are really only those two possibilities, then either they stay together and kill each other, or they change their mind and decide that in facth they don't want to stay together, and they divorce.
    So in simple terms, They DO care, and DO want to stay together, but can't.

    I like simple. Simple good.

    Thread Crapper
    ~ August 16,2005 Poll-Master ~
    August 17, 2005 Century Club Member ~ August 29, 2005

    I have a fondness for intelligence.
    I often black out when doing something really stupid. I supose that's why I'm such a danger to my self
    .



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