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  1.    #1  
    Against my better judgment, and giving way instead to my addiction to kick ideas around here on TC... From the "...Unanswered Questions" thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Maybe don't go there - I might ask you again why the US, while being much more religious than Europe, have much higher abortion rates and MUCH higher teenage pregnancy rates than other Western countries.
    No - "joint-emphasis on personal autonomy and personal convenience" is not the reason why many religious people fight stem cell research, but never called for a ban of intrauterine devices.
    Before I start my treatise on the emphasis on personal autonomy and personal convenience, I will solicit your thoughts (and others') on the question of why religious people fight stem cell research but not IUD's for example.
  2. #2  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    ...I will solicit your thoughts (and others') on the question of why religious people fight stem cell research but not IUD's for example.
    Doesn't the Roman Catholic church disapprove of artifical birth control? Doesn't an IUD fall into that category?
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  3. #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gamble
    Doesn't the Roman Catholic church disapprove of artifical birth control? Doesn't an IUD fall into that category?
    Yes. At least it was that way when I was going to a Catholic school/church.
  4. #4  
    Contraception - Do, if you don't, & Don't if you do!

    Thread Crapper
    ~ August 16,2005 Poll-Master ~
    August 17, 2005 Century Club Member ~ August 29, 2005

    I have a fondness for intelligence.
    I often black out when doing something really stupid. I supose that's why I'm such a danger to my self
    .



  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Before I start my treatise on the emphasis on personal autonomy and personal convenience, I will solicit your thoughts (and others') on the question of why religious people fight stem cell research but not IUD's for example.
    You will solicit, meaning we wait until you solicit, or we come forth now?

    OK, my thoughts why religious people fight stem cell research but not IUD's: They were not aware of the fact that IUD's prevent embryos from implanting into the uterus. Interestingly, "many groups (including the United States Food and Drug Administration, National Institutes of Health, and the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists) consider implantation to be the beginning of a pregnancy. Under this definition, an IUD preventing implantation is not causing an abortion." (Wikipedia)
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gamble
    Doesn't the Roman Catholic church disapprove of artifical birth control? Doesn't an IUD fall into that category?
    Yes, for the Catholic church sex is a grave sin if you have sex only because you enjoy it, not for making kids, even if you are married (and have sex with your wife, just in case).
    (Source)

    I think this view is highly understandable. Catholic priests are not allowed to marry or to have sex, which is against nature, so sex is a constant threat to them, and they have no choice but to see sex as something bad. Bad luck for them, and for those who believe what they tell others about sex. Like deaf people telling you Mozart or Beatles is bad music.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Against my better judgment, and giving way instead to my addiction to kick ideas around here on TC... From the "...Unanswered Questions" thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Maybe don't go there - I might ask you again why the US, while being much more religious than Europe, have much higher abortion rates and MUCH higher teenage pregnancy rates than other Western countries.
    So, will you answer my question above?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  8. #8  
    Part of the problem is the American attitude toward sex. Our media is saturated with it, but we try to sweep it under the rug. We are scared to death to talk to our kids about it for fear that they will start doing it. As a consequence, contraception education is almost nonexistent, with the resulting teen pregnancy rate.
    It was interesting to read that the Europeans could not understand our outrage over the sex scenes in Grand Theft Auto, but our acceptance of the violence. We will allow our children to see an R-rated movie with over-the-top violence, but we go berserk if it includes a sex scene. Sex between consenting adults is natural, shooting, stabbing, and dismembering is not.
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Yes, for the Catholic church sex is a grave sin if you have sex only because you enjoy it, not for making kids, even if you are married (and have sex with your wife, just in case).
    (Source)
    No matter what your internet source is, this is NOT what we were taught.

    I'm no longer a practicing Catholic, not even Christian, but I don't like it when things are posted that just aren't true.

    http://www.americancatholic.org/News.../CU/ac0892.asp
    http://www.catholic.net/rcc/Periodic...8/Virtues.html
    http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Periodic...7/column1.html
  10.    #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    So, will you answer my question above?
    Always happy to accomodate.

    Religion is adherence to external rules, regulations, and ritual. Behavior is a function of internal belief system. Any effort to control behavior externally will ultimately fail.

    Unfortunately, church (small "c") leadership is often better at establishing codes of behavior than effecting change in beliefs.

    Hence people who adhere to the norms are left believing they are in "good stead" despite their clear contradiction with what they say they believe. Consequences, though, know no such duplicity, and hence the hypocritical are left with the fruit of their labor, i.e. teen pregnancy and abortion, to name a few.
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Always happy to accomodate.

    Religion is adherence to external rules, regulations, and ritual. Behavior is a function of internal belief system. Any effort to control behavior externally will ultimately fail.

    Unfortunately, church (small "c") leadership is often better at establishing codes of behavior than effecting change in beliefs.

    Hence people who adhere to the norms are left believing they are in "good stead" despite their clear contradiction with what they say they believe. Consequences, though, know no such duplicity, and hence the hypocritical are left with the fruit of their labor, i.e. teen pregnancy and abortion, to name a few.
    So what you are saying is that in the US many people go to church without actually believing or at least acting upon what is told in church (hypocritical people, as you put it).

    In my view, this does not explain why teen pregnancy and abortion are much higher in the US than in most if not all European countries (See this review for sources). I don't think church-goers in Europe follow the rules more strictly or believe more intensively.

    I tend to think the strange ways how religions deal with sexuality have a lot to do with the situation in the US. They preach abstinence and ban contraceptives, and the result is teenage pregnancy and abortion. The less religious European way leads to a more open discussion, better education about the use of contraceptives and condoms if needed, and hence less teenage pregnacy, abortion, sexually transmitted diseases, etc. Here some more results of the study quoted above:

    U.S. teenagers have higher STD (Sexually Transmitted Disease) rates than teenagers in other developed countries—for example, England, Canada, France and Sweden—because they have more sexual partners and probably lower levels of condom use.


    LESSONS LEARNED FROM CROSS-NATIONAL STUDIES

    • Differences in sexual activity and the age at which teenagers become sexually active do not account for the wide variation in pregnancy and STD rates among comparable developed countries, such as Canada, France, Great Britain, Sweden and the United States.

    • Strong public support and expectations for the transition to adult economic roles, and for parenthood, provide young people with greater incentives and means to delay childbearing.

    Countries with low levels of adolescent pregnancy, childbearing and STDs are characterized by societal acceptance of adolescent sexual relationships, combined with comprehensive and balanced information about sexuality and clear expectations about commitment and prevention of pregnancy and STDs within these relationships.

    • Easy access to contraceptives and other reproductive health services contributes to better contraceptive use and, in turn, low teenage pregnancy rates.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by lb505
    No matter what your internet source is, this is NOT what we were taught.

    I'm no longer a practicing Catholic, not even Christian, but I don't like it when things are posted that just aren't true.

    http://www.americancatholic.org/News.../CU/ac0892.asp
    http://www.catholic.net/rcc/Periodic...8/Virtues.html
    http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Periodic...7/column1.html
    In 1930, pope Pius XI declared in his encyclical (hence "infallibly"): "the Catholic Church, ... proclaims anew: any use whatsoever of matrimony exercised in such a way that the act is deliberately frustrated in its natural power to generate life is an offense against the law of God and of nature, and those who indulge in such are branded with the guilt of a grave sin."

    This was later tuned down a bit by Pope Paul VI in his encyclical Humanae Vitae. But the problem with being infallible is that you cannot really change things said before, so what Pope Pius XI wrote still remains.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    In 1930, pope Pius XI declared in his encyclical (hence "infallibly"): "the Catholic Church, ... proclaims anew: any use whatsoever of matrimony exercised in such a way that the act is deliberately frustrated in its natural power to generate life is an offense against the law of God and of nature, and those who indulge in such are branded with the guilt of a grave sin."
    .
    So what? That refers to birth control, not having sex because you enjoy it.

    Support your statement that it is a grave sin to have sex for any reason other than to have kids.
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by lb505
    So what? That refers to birth control, not having sex because you enjoy it.

    Support your statement that it is a grave sin to have sex for any reason other than to have kids.
    It's not my statement it's that of Pope Pius XI. He wrote

    "any use whatsoever of matrimony exercised in such a way that the act is deliberately frustrated in its natural power to generate life is an offense against the law of God and of nature, and those who indulge in such are branded with the guilt of a grave sin."

    "Use of matrimony" means sex. Any sex that is "deliberately frustrated in its natural power to generate life" (meaning sex that does not at least potentially lead to offspring) is "an offense against the law of God and of nature". Those who do it anyway "are branded with the guilt of a grave sin."

    Later Pope Paul VI wrote that it is ok to check when the wife is not fertile (by measuring the temperature) and NOT to have sex when the woman is fertile (only if you are married of course). All other means are still not allowed, and also sex among two people in love who are not married is sin.

    Granted, it is not the official position that sex per se is bad, but for obvious reasons sex is a difficult topic for Catholic priests.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Yes, for the Catholic church sex is a grave sin if you have sex only because you enjoy it, not for making kids, even if you are married (and have sex with your wife, just in case).
    (Source)
    Um...I'll have to call BS on that one. And remember Wikipedia is not always accurate. One of the "features" that Wikipedia offers is that anyone can go in and edit the information. The Catholic Church teaches family planning which is a way of having sex around a woman's cycle in order to not have children. This method is (actually can't remember the exact %, but if I remember right ) over 90% effective. The Catholic church would not be teaching this if sex for enjoyement was a "grave sin".
  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup

    Any sex that is "deliberately frustrated in its natural power to generate life" (meaning sex that does not at least potentially lead to offspring)."
    How did you come up with that?
    "deliberately frustrated in its natural power to generate life" - preventing conception. So to use birth control is not allowed. Again, how does this mean that it is a grave sin to have sex for any reason other than to have kids?
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by RicoM
    Um...I'll have to call BS on that one. And remember Wikipedia is not always accurate. One of the "features" that Wikipedia offers is that anyone can go in and edit the information. The Catholic Church teaches family planning which is a way of having sex around a woman's cycle in order to not have children. This method is (actually can't remember the exact %, but if I remember right ) over 90% effective. The Catholic church would not be teaching this if sex for enjoyement was a "grave sin".
    I know the Catholic Church does that nowadays, I mentioned it im my previous post:

    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Later Pope Paul VI wrote that it is ok to check when the wife is not fertile (by measuring the temperature) and NOT to have sex when the woman is fertile (only if you are married of course). All other means are still not allowed, and also sex among two people in love who are not married is sin.

    Granted, it is not the official position that sex per se is bad, but for obvious reasons sex is a difficult topic for Catholic priests.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  18.    #18  
    How about, just admit that in you overstated the position? Your source does not indicate a belief that sex for pleasure is not frowned upon.

    That notwithstanding, I will agree with you that sex can be a difficult subject for the Catholic (capital "C") church (small "c"), because it puts an undue burden on its priesthood to refrain from sex.
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by lb505
    How did you come up with that?
    "deliberately frustrated in its natural power to generate life" - preventing conception. So to use birth control is not allowed. Again, how does this mean that it is a grave sin to have sex for any reason other than to have kids?
    I if two healthy people (male and female) have sex (described as "genital actions resulting in sexual intercourse and/or orgasm" in the first link you quoted), then either there is some use of contraception, or the sex has the potential side effect of pregnancy. Since all forms of preventing conception are grave sins according to Pius XI, only sex with the potential of creating offspring is no sin, or where am I mistaken?

    As mentioned before, Paul VI later changed that slightly and said preventing conception by finding out when the woman is not fertile and having sex then is not a sin. This of course casts doubts on Pius XI's being infallible, which he should be according to the Catholic church when stating things in an encyclical.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  20.    #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I tend to think the strange ways how religions deal with sexuality have a lot to do with the situation in the US. They preach abstinence
    (before marriage)
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    and ban contraceptives
    (not needed in marriage)
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    , and the result is teenage pregnancy and abortion.
    Certainly an unscientific conclusion. Teenage pregnancy does not result from abstinence and lack of contraceptives. In fact, the exact opposite results can be expected.

    Teen preganancy results from coitus. Likewise, abortion results from an intentional act of destroying the life that was initiated in pregnancy.
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    The less religious European way leads to a more open discussion, better education about the use of contraceptives and condoms if needed, and hence less teenage pregnacy, abortion, sexually transmitted diseases, etc. Here some more results of the study quoted above:
    It is not the teaching that leads to the demographic conditions. It is a matter of adherence to the teaching (or lack thereof).

    Is it so difficult to comprehend that STDs, Abortion, and teen pregnancy would be ancient history if all people practiced abstinence before marriage, monogamy in marriage, and sanctity of life at all stages of development?

    And, if you want to really examine cause and effect, you need only apply the "show me the money" rule: there is a lot of money to be made from sexual promiscuity. Namely,

    1. Abortions are not free
    2. Condoms are not free (they may be given a way, but I assure you the manufacturers are selling them to someone)
    3. Medicines are not free
    4. Funding for Medical Research to identify cures to preventable diseases puts food on many tables

    Yet, the safest, healthiest, least expensive approach to sexuality is labeled "strange"

    Sad. Very sad.
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