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  1.    #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I if two healthy people (male and female) have sex (described as "genital actions resulting in sexual intercourse and/or orgasm" in the first link you quoted), then either there is some use of contraception, or the sex has the potential side effect of pregnancy. Since all forms of preventing conception are grave sins according to Pius XI, only sex with the potential of creating offspring is no sin, or where am I mistaken?

    As mentioned before, Paul VI later changed that slightly and said preventing conception by finding out when the woman is not fertile and having sex then is not a sin. This of course casts doubts on Pius XI's being infallible, which he should be according to the Catholic church when stating things in an encyclical.
    Sex for pleasure does not "frustrate [sex's] natural power to generate life." It not only has the potential for creating offspring but promotes the potential of creating offspring.
  2.    #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    So what you are saying is that in the US many people go to church without actually believing or at least acting upon what is told in church (hypocritical people, as you put it).
    Yes
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Certainly an unscientific conclusion. Teenage pregnancy does not result from abstinence and lack of contraceptives. In fact, the exact opposite results can be expected.
    The statistics point into another direction:

    LESSONS LEARNED FROM CROSS-NATIONAL STUDIES

    • Differences in sexual activity and the age at which teenagers become sexually active do not account for the wide variation in pregnancy and STD rates among comparable developed countries, such as Canada, France, Great Britain, Sweden and the United States.
    The results show that, regardless of cultural background, sexual activity in adolescents start at the same age and with roughly the same frequency.
    • Countries with low levels of adolescent pregnancy, childbearing and STDs are characterized by societal acceptance of adolescent sexual relationships, combined with comprehensive and balanced information about sexuality and clear expectations about commitment and prevention of pregnancy and STDs within these relationships.
    The US have high levels of teenage pregnancy, STDs, abortions, etc. Why?
    • Easy access to contraceptives and other reproductive health services contributes to better contraceptive use and, in turn, low teenage pregnancy rates.
    Judging from the results, other countries seem to follow better strategies in preventing teenage pregnancy, STDs, abortions, or what do you think?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  4.    #24  
    I think that all of the teens who have remained abstinent have avoided both pregnancy and STDs. Do the statistics show a different outcome for that control group?
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    I think that all of the teens who have remained abstinent have avoided both pregnancy and STDs. Do the statistics show a different outcome for that control group?
    Unfortunately, that group was too small for a statistic evaluation. Theoretically, you would be right, but in practice, obviously other means work far better. Or why else do you think teenage pregnancies and abortions are much higher in the US than in most European countries? You still did not answer this.

    It is easy to preach abstinence as the cure-all and not take reality into consideration. I get the impression this is what is happening in the US, or what do you think (see question above)?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    In 1930, pope Pius XI declared in his encyclical (hence "infallibly"):
    I just want to point out that just because it was in his encylical does NOT mean it's infallible....


    Encyclical
  7.    #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Unfortunately, that group was too small for a statistic evaluation.
    A more accurate explanation would be "statistically ignored." The sources you provided studied birth rates, abortion rates, health records, and discussions with health care professional. All of these are post-experience data points.

    The reason the sexually abstinent population would be "statiscally small" in such sampling, is because they are not getting pregnant, are not giving birth, are not having abortions, and are not contracting STDs.

    Logical Conclusion: The Church's position is far superior at mitigating such risks.
  8.    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    It is easy to preach abstinence as the cure-all and not take reality into consideration. I get the impression this is what is happening in the US, or what do you think (see question above)?
    You want to know why it is is easy to preach abstience as the cure-all?

    drum roll please................

    Because it IS the cure-all. That's reality.

    Unfortunately, some would prefer to live in a fantasy world where any indulgences can be entertained without consequence.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by RicoM
    I just want to point out that just because it was in his encylical does NOT mean it's infallible....


    Encyclical
    Encyclicals are not always infallible, but they may be (there is no clear definition). Many within the Catholic church consider e.g Casti Connubii by Pius XI infallible. Some, e.g. the former Pope, say it is very close to being infallible, or will be soon:

    Does this teaching of the Church on the subject of contraception have to be understood as the expression of the
    ordinary Magisterium in the highest sense of the term?
    It seems that, up until now, this has not the case, above all if we consider the fact that Paul VI named a special
    Commission to re-study the problem. Despite this, we cannot deny the fact that the constant teaching of the
    Church in this regard, confirmed by the well-known documents of Paul VI on the matter, is close to the stage
    of development and maturity when it will be able to be understood as constituting a part of the ordinary
    Magisterium of the Church.

    http://www.catholicpreaching.com/con...s/Analecta.pdf
    But I will gladly accept it isn't meant to be infallible, and not argue this point any more.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  10.    #30  
    Even better, the Bible is clear. You can do what you want to do. It is churches (small "C") who demand adherence to the rules. That's religion.

    You know what God says, through His word?

    God says, I have given you a choice to make between life and death, or stated another way, blessing and cursing.

    Then, the recommendation is given: choose life.

    But...,
    ...if you choose to eat unclean animals, you will be subject to more sickness
    ...if you choose to work every day, you will be subject to stress/burnout
    ...if you choose to adore creatures rather than the Creator, you will be subject to disillusionment
    ...if you choose to dishonor your parents, you will be subject to repeating their mistakes
    ...if you choose to murder, you will be subject to constant fear of retaliation
    ...if you choose to take possessions of others without permission, you will be subject to fear of retribution
    ...if you choose to be dishonest, you will be subject to an inability to trust others
    ...if you choose to engage in sexual promiscuity, you will be subject to disease

    You can take as many steps as you wish to avoid the consequences of your deadly decisions, but the best choice is to choose life.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    You want to know why it is is easy to preach abstience as the cure-all?

    drum roll please................

    Because it IS the cure-all. That's reality.

    Unfortunately, some would prefer to live in a fantasy world where any indulgences can be entertained without consequence.
    That's like preaching against fire departments, because if we would all be more careful with possible causes of fire, we would not need them.

    You still did not answer: why are teenage pregnancies and abortions so much more frequent in the US than in most European countries, in your view?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  12.    #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    That's like preaching against fire departments, because if we would all be more careful with possible causes of fire, we would not need them.

    You still did not answer: why are teenage pregnancies and abortions so much more frequent in the US than in most European countries, in your view?
    In my view, the people in the US who make deadly sexual choices are not as good at dodging the consequences of their decisions as their European counterparts.
  13.    #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    That's like preaching against fire departments, because if we would all be more careful with possible causes of fire, we would not need them.
    No, it's like preaching against playing with matches.

    Fire Departments are to the pyrologically negligent as ointment is to the sexually negligent
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    In my view, the people in the US who make deadly sexual choices are not as good at dodging the consequences of their decisions as their European counterparts.
    And why aren't they as good? Lack of education due to religious pressure, or what do you think? There must be something, because the numbers are more than clear...
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  15.    #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    And why aren't they as good? Lack of education due to religious pressure, or what do you think? There must be something, because the numbers are more than clear...
    Obviously, you spend little time in the US. Or when you are here, you don't pay attention.

    Children are inundated with sexual instruction. In fact, when they should be learning math and science (you could probably come up with a survey that shows the US you are falling behind in such areas), they are becoming experts at putting condoms on cucumbers.

    On top of all that, when they misbehave, those who bring punitive actions are chastised.

    When they do not perform well academically, they get a certificate of self-esteem.

    When standardized testing is introduced, some educational professionals decide to teach to the test, or worse, stop teaching all together so as to have more time to protest the standards.

    What do the youth get out of this? Do what you want, when you want, because there are not consequences.

    But, guess what? When you minimize consequences, you even undermine the effectiveness of the safe sex sermons.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Obviously, you spend little time in the US. Or when you are here, you don't pay attention.

    Children are inundated with sexual instruction. In fact, when they should be learning math and science (you could probably come up with a survey that shows the US you are falling behind in such areas), they are becoming experts at putting condoms on cucumbers.

    On top of all that, when they misbehave, those who bring punitive actions are chastised.

    When they do not perform well academically, they get a certificate of self-esteem.

    When standardized testing is introduced, some educational professionals decide to teach to the test, or worse, stop teaching all together so as to have more time to protest the standards.

    What do the youth get out of this? Do what you want, when you want, because there are not consequences.

    But, guess what? When you minimize consequences, you even undermine the effectiveness of the safe sex sermons.
    So it's the fault of the schools and the teachers... very easy way out. Adolescents here also learn how to use condoms in school, etc. but we still have far less teenage pregnancy etc. When compared to Europe, the US are a very conservative and religious. I think those factors play a far greater role than those you mentioned. Look at the scandal Janet Jackson's breast caused... nobody in Europe would have cared about that incident in the least. If a single breast on TV causes a national uproar, no wonder adolescents end up confused and don't use condoms when they should. As the study quoted before put it: "Countries with low levels of adolescent pregnancy, childbearing and STDs are characterized by societal acceptance of adolescent sexual relationships, combined with comprehensive and balanced information about sexuality and clear expectations about commitment and prevention of pregnancy and STDs within these relationships."

    But I can imagine I am not going to convince you, and vice versa...
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    But...,
    ...if you choose to eat unclean animals, you will be subject to more sickness
    Is that why people who eat pork drop dead within a week and go straight to hell?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  18.    #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    So it's the fault of the schools and the teachers... very easy way out.
    No where did I state or even imply that the teachers are at fault for teen pregnancy (though an exception can be made for those teachers that are having sexual relations with their students), abortion or STDs.

    Are you even reading what I'm writing?

    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Adolescents here also learn how to use condoms in school, etc. but we still have far less teenage pregnancy etc. When compared to Europe, the US are a very conservative and religious. I think those factors play a far greater role than those you mentioned. Look at the scandal Janet Jackson's breast caused... nobody in Europe would have cared about that incident in the least. If a single breast on TV causes a national uproar, no wonder adolescents end up confused and don't use condoms when they should. As the study quoted before put it: "Countries with low levels of adolescent pregnancy, childbearing and STDs are characterized by societal acceptance of adolescent sexual relationships, combined with comprehensive and balanced information about sexuality and clear expectations about commitment and prevention of pregnancy and STDs within these relationships."

    But I can imagine I am not going to convince you, and vice versa...
    And for the record, celebrating "low levels of adolescent pregnancy, childbearing and STDs" is as foolish as celebrating narrow losses...unless you are resigned to defeat.

    "No levels" seems like a much more laudible goal to me.

    But, if you are resigned to the notion that "young people are going to do it whether we like it or not" that is your choice. But, please stay away from my children. Statistically speaking, there is a good chance you are a child molester and you may not have the ability to restrain yourself against those urges.

    EDITOR'S NOTE: That last statement is an example of presenting the absurd to demonstrate the absurdity of the practice.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    No where did I state or even imply that the teachers are at fault for teen pregnancy (though an exception can be made for those teachers that are having sexual relations with their students), abortion or STDs.

    Are you even reading what I'm writing?
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Children are inundated with sexual instruction. In fact, when they should be learning math and science (you could probably come up with a survey that shows the US you are falling behind in such areas), they are becoming experts at putting condoms on cucumbers.
    Sounds like school/actions of teachers to me.
    When they do not perform well academically, they get a certificate of self-esteem.
    Sounds like school/actions of teachers to me.
    When standardized testing is introduced, some educational professionals decide to teach to the test, or worse, stop teaching all together so as to have more time to protest the standards.
    Sounds like school/actions of teachers to me.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  20.    #40  
    Ok, I'll play along.
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Sounds like school/actions of teachers to me.
    Sounds like school/actions of teachers to me.
    Sounds like school/actions of teachers to me.
    In which of those examples do I state or suggest that
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    it's the fault of the schools and the teachers
    ?

    I have pointed out that:
    1. The US also has robust sex education (as other nations)
    2. The US also has watered down general education, most noteably the absence of real consequences

    I then made the logical conclusion, that the so called "safe sex" education is undermined by the parallel track of no-consequence education.

    I did not say that it is the teachers' fault that the US has higher incidences of teenage pregnancy, abortion, or STDs than other "civilized" nations.

    I did not say it is the schools' fault that the US has higher incidences of teenage pregnancy, abortion, or STDs than other "civilized" nations.

    I will not say it is the churches' fault that the US has higher incidences of teenage pregnancy, abortion, or STDs than other "civilized" nations.


    Why?

    Because the fault should be placed squarely at the feet of the people who are engaging in the behavior that leads to incidences of teenage pregnancy, abortion, or STDs than other "civilized" nations.
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