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  1.    #1  
    I was in Hiroshima years ago, and I of course walked through the peace park and museum there.

    It documents powerfully the horrors experienced by the citizens of Hiroshima.

    I loved Hiroshima and the people there -- it was one of my favorite places in Japan. And I have always had a serious love for Japanese culture, Japanese women, and Japanese films.

    But I was a little troubled by the exhibits -- not by what was horribly shown -- but by what wasn't.

    There wasn't any reference to the atrocities the Japanese inflicted onto the people of the Philipines, Korea, and China -- especially China.

    There was no real acknowledgement of the war that the Japanese began, of the evil they unleashed, of the rapacious savagery with which they conquered.

    And I know of no other museum in Japan that provides this resource (though maybe there is and I'm ignorant of it).

    Japan and its people are probably the most decent least war like in the world.

    But I know enough of the history of how Japan came to surrender, that regretably, those bombs needed to be dropped.

    Talking of Iran getting nukes and the 60 year anniversary last week of Hiroshima made me think about all this ...
    Last edited by BARYE; 08/12/2005 at 06:11 PM.
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  2. #2  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    But I was a little troubled by the exhibits -- not by what was horribly shown -- but by what wasn't.

    There wasn't any reference to the atrocities the Japanese inflicted onto the people of the Philipines, Korea, and China -- especially China.

    There was no real acknowledgement of the war that the Japanese began, of the evil they unleashed, of the rapacious savagery with which they conquered.
    Japanese history schoolbooks make no mention of what Japanese soldiers did to Chinese slaves in WWII, and as far as I know, Japan has never publicly made any apology for their war crimes. This is still a source of tension between Japan and China.
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  3. #3  
    I fully agree with you Barye on this. I will look up references later when I have more time, but the Japanese were brutal during WWII. In fact (and I need to look up the details again) did you know that Hiroshima was not the single most deadly day in the war with Japan.....it was 5 months earlier when they attacked and slaughtered a great deal more in one day than the bomb killed in Hiroshima.
  4.    #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    I fully agree with you Barye on this. I will look up references later when I have more time, but the Japanese were brutal during WWII. In fact (and I need to look up the details again) did you know that Hiroshima was not the single most deadly day in the war with Japan.....it was 5 months earlier when they attacked and slaughtered a great deal more in one day than the bomb killed in Hiroshima.

    more were killed in the firebombing of Tokyo that in Hiroshima --
    and I also think more died during the "rape of Nanking" though I'll have to check the numbers
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  5. #5  
    I was just thinking of this the other night watching a special on the two a-bombs including Nagasaki. Horrible! Can't imagine ever having to say yes we have to drop it. I guess the Japanese didn't believe the Americans that we had the capability. What is even more amazing is they had a chance to surrender before Nagsaki was dropped. I have a hard time on the killing of the civilians, and I also know Japan would not surrender. A land invasion by the Americans would of killed tens of thousands of our guys and theirs. So, unfortunately yes it was appropriate given the situation. Now, no way. Suppose the only way to maybe justify it's use today is in retaliation for survival.

    Interesting fact is Nagasaki was not the intended city. A nearby city by Hiroshima was, but was covered with smoke b/c of the initial blast - so Nagasaki was the backup plan.
  6. #6  
    What is also interesting is that we came within 2 or 3 days of a strong possibility of Japan being able to develop the bomb before us and use it on us first.
  7.    #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    What is also interesting is that we came within 2 or 3 days of a strong possibility of Japan being able to develop the bomb before us and use it on us first.
    are you Referring to the uranium shipped by U-boat ??
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  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    I have a hard time on the killing of the civilians, and I also know Japan would not surrender.
    not true - the Japanese military was already attempting to negotiate the terms of surrender before the bombs were dropped. The only condition they had at the time was that the Emperor would not be touched, which Truman did not accept (though later it was accepted after the bombs were dropped).

    A land invasion by the Americans would of killed tens of thousands of our guys and theirs. So, unfortunately yes it was appropriate given the situation. Now, no way. Suppose the only way to maybe justify it's use today is in retaliation for survival.
    estimate was up to 500,000 american lives would be saved - though this is still being debated.

    Two other possible reasons why the bombs were dropped:
    One main reason was to demonstrate to the Russians (who were rapidly becoming our biggest threat in Europe already at the time) that we had the resolve to do what was necessary - and to the Japanese, in case they had any doubts about their surrender.
    The other reason was to collect the data when used on a population (I don't believe that)

    Several military leaders (including Eisenhower and McArthur) believed that it was the wrong decision.

    Interesting archive recently released to the public regarding Truman's decisions on the bomb can be found here.

    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    What is also interesting is that we came within 2 or 3 days of a strong possibility of Japan being able to develop the bomb before us and use it on us first.
    there was no evidence for that (yes - it was about the German Uboat - but they had not yet worked out the conditions to develop the critical mass for the fission reaction).

    .
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  9.    #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    not true - the Japanese military was already attempting to negotiate the terms of surrender before the bombs were dropped. The only condition they had at the time was that the Emperor would not be touched, which Truman did not accept (though later it was accepted after the bombs were dropped).
    opposition to surrender was incredibly intense even in the hours before the Emperor made his speech. Many died in the distraught attempt by angry officers to bring about a coup -- and to seize the emperor's recorded capitulation.
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  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    are you Referring to the uranium shipped by U-boat ??
    Yes...Germany and Japan were in bed together to get the bomb. Germany had the materials and the deployment system technology and Japan was VERY close to the built it know how. A day or two before Germany surrendered a U-Boat left Germany with Japanese and germans on board with nuke materials to build a bomb. 2 days before it was suppose to arrive in Japan, German surrendered. The U-Boat surrendered itself, the Japanese committed suicide rather than be captured and Japan never got their nuke materials.

    It has been projected that if Germany had surrendered two days later and that U-boat made it to Japan that with the combined technology and materials between the two countries that Japan could have the bomb before we finished ours. Then a plane over LA, San Fran, Seattle, etc... is all it would have taken.

    With only a 2 day margin, today could have been a totally different world.
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    opposition to surrender was incredibly intense even in the hours before the Emperor made his speech. Many died in the distraught attempt by angry officers to bring about a coup -- and to seize the emperor's recorded capitulation.
    true - there was a faction that attempted a last minute coup. But the Japanese Minister had been authorized by the Emperor several weeks earlier (before the Bombs) to prepare the terms for surrender.
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  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    With only a 2 day margin, today could have been a totally different world.
    cite. There was absolutely no evidence for advanced state of the German bomb. Uranium was not of sufficient purity (of isotope 235) to achieve critical mass.
    Palm m505 -> Treo600 (GSM ATT) -> Treo650 (Cingular) -> BB8700g -> BB Pearl
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  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    there was no evidence for that (yes - it was about the German Uboat - but they had not yet worked out the conditions to develop the critical mass for the fission reaction).
    You are right, that it is not certain, as thankfully we never were in a position to really find out. The big factor in the story is that right about the same time that U-234 left for Germany for Japan, the Riken Lab (which is the location Japan was planning on refining the 1,235 pounds of 77 percent pure uranium oxide and build the bomb) was destroyed by Allied bombing. Since it never made it to Japan, we don't still to this day are not sure if they had a backup plan or not....or the extent of their enrichment technology at the facility that we bombed.

    It has also been rumored, though not confirmed to the best of my knowledge, that the uranium taken from u-234 was sent to Oakridge to help build the bomb for Hiroshima.

    The finer points are conjecture and unknowns. The fact is that they did have the plan in place to attempt to do it.

    The point is, we came within a couple days of setting up the potential to greatly alter history against our favor.

    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    cite. There was absolutely no evidence for advanced state of the German bomb. Uranium was not of sufficient purity (of isotope 235) to achieve critical mass.
    I know....that is why they needed the facilities in Japan because Germany didn't have it. Unknown to most, Japan test fired their first nuclear device a week before the Americans test fired theirs. Japan merely lacked the fissionable material to make the bomb, with u-234 was bring the materials to Japan's still much unknown nuke program's capabilities.

    We spent a GREAT deal of intel, covert missions, planning, and strategic attacks against the Nazis in Germany, Norway, Sweden, etc... to stop them from being able to refine to a point of critical mass. I can think of at least two missions that I know about in Norway where we took out their hard water processing facilities, setting the Germans a steep setback in the nuke race.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 08/12/2005 at 05:56 PM.
  14.    #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    You are right, that it is not certain, as thankfully we never were in a position to really find out. The big factor in the story is that right about the same time that U-234 left for Germany for Japan, the Riken Lab (which is the location Japan was planning on refining the 560 kg of uranium oxide and built the bomb) was destroyed by Allied bombing. Since it never made it to Japan, we don't still to this day are not sure if they had a backup plan or not....or the extent of their enrichment technology at the facility that we bombed.

    It has also been rumored, though not confirmed to the best of my knowledge, that the uranium taken from u-234 was sent to Oakridge to help build the bomb for Hiroshima.

    The finer points are conjecture and unknowns. The fact is that they did have the plan in place to attempt to do it.

    The point is, we came within a couple days of setting up the potential to greatly alter history against our favor.

    I know....that is why they needed the facilities in Japan because Germany didn't have it.

    We spent a GREAT deal of intel, covert missions, planning, and strategic attacks against the Nazis in Germany, Norway, Sweden, etc... to stop them from being able to refine to a point of critical mass. I can think of at least two missions that I know about in Norway where we took out their hard water processing facilities, setting the Germans a steep setback in the nuke race.
    Norwegian (and British) commandos heroically destroyed the nazi HEAVY water production facilities --

    and I believe that the captured material was processed for our bombs.

    Remeber also that we knew about those submarines and their cargo because of our having broken their codes. Those were the most hunted subs of the war. One surrendered and the other was sunk (I think that's accurate)
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  15. #15  
    It's a good thing I wasn't in charge of Germany's Nuke program I would have clogged all the pipes with the hard water!
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 08/12/2005 at 06:24 PM.
  16.    #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal

    The point is, we came within a couple days of setting up the potential to greatly alter history against our favor.

    I know....that is why they needed the facilities in Japan because Germany didn't have it. Unknown to most, Japan test fired their first nuclear device a week before the Americans test fired theirs. Japan merely lacked the fissionable material to make the bomb, with u-234 was bring the materials to Japan's still much unknown nuke program's capabilities.

    other important obstacles for the Japanese was the abscence of a true intercontinental bomber -- they were working on one, but it was months from being available.

    They also had not solved the fission problem with the implosion solution.
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  17.    #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    cite. There was absolutely no evidence for advanced state of the German bomb. Uranium was not of sufficient purity (of isotope 235) to achieve critical mass.

    morally its enough to know that they would have done it to us if they had had the oppurtunity first
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  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    true - there was a faction that attempted a last minute coup. But the Japanese Minister had been authorized by the Emperor several weeks earlier (before the Bombs) to prepare the terms for surrender.
    To coin a phrase, "cite".

    All we knew was that the Japanese fought to the last man on Tarawa, Iwo Jima and Okinawa. They fought like demons on Guadalcanal, New Britain and Guam. Harry Truman, the last Democrat to hold that office that was worth a damn, made a call. I'm sure it was a tough one.

    Are you aware that in the invasion plan, there was no mention of the 2nd Marine Division after day three of Operation Olympic? 30,000 guys. It was assumed that 30,000 guys, the entire division, would be gone after 72 hours.
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    other important obstacles for the Japanese was the abscence of a true intercontinental bomber -- they were working on one, but it was months from being available.

    They also had not solved the fission problem with the implosion solution.
    No, but nothing would have really stopped them from putting one on a submarine and sailing close to a major port.
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Norwegian (and British) commandos heroically destroyed the nazi HEAVY water production facilities --

    and I believe that the captured material was processed for our bombs.

    Remeber also that we knew about those submarines and their cargo because of our having broken their codes. Those were the most hunted subs of the war. One surrendered and the other was sunk (I think that's accurate)
    You are correct.
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