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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Norwegian (and British) commandos heroically destroyed the nazi HEAVY water production facilities --
    I have a bad habit of when talking about WWII, saying we in general terms for Allied forces, including all countries with mutual recognition. There are times that I really should specify the forces of individual nations with great achievements.
  2. z3bum's Avatar
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    #22  
    Funny how people filter out bits of info from history. I have Jewish clients who won't drive German cars, but happily buy Japanese cars and claim it's because of WWII. Yet the Japanese military was far more brutal in its treatment of prisoners than the Nazis were. Death marchs, continuous work details and torture were not uncommon.

    It was a sad day in Earth's history when we bombed Japan, but it probably was necessary. Now the trouble is that continued nuclear development will eventually give other countries nuclear capability. Iraq was much closer than is widely publicized (according to some scientists I know who helped with some of the data analysis) Iran certainly is trying to have a nuclear program along with North Korea. How will America deal with these countries once it becomes apparent that they can 'Strike Back'?
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  3. #23  
    Here is a great piece concerning the facts, maybe's, etc....of Japan nuke program and their relationship to Germany:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ja...atomic_program

    .
  4.    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by z3bum
    Yet the Japanese military was far more brutal in its treatment of prisoners than the Nazis were. Death marchs, continuous work details and torture were not uncommon.
    True the Japanese treated their prisoners hideously. They starved, tortured, and worked them to death.

    And they performed medical games on them as well. Perhaps you have heard about how allied POWs were used as guinea pigs for chemical and biological experiments.

    What is nearly as scary is that the bastards who did this stuff were never pursued for war crimes. Instead the US govt. hired them to work for us. True !

    Comparing the treatment of POWs by the Japanese versus the Germans is slightly more complex.

    Germany for the most part treated western POWs properly and according to the "rules of war". But these were prisoners largely taken while Germany was descending to defeat.

    Russian, Polish POWs though, were treated almost as horrifically as were jews. Millions were captured (literally millions) and only thousands survived to return home.

    The nazis were pursuing a war of murder and enslavement against the peoples they conquered in the east. Their extermination of the Jews in areas they controlled was overwhelmingly successful. It also powerfully contributed, ultimately, to their defeat.
    Last edited by BARYE; 08/13/2005 at 03:27 AM.
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  5.    #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Interesting fact is Nagasaki was not the intended city. A nearby city by Hiroshima was, but was covered with smoke b/c of the initial blast - so Nagasaki was the backup plan.
    another curious thing about Nagasaki is that it was historically the most Christian of any place in Japan.

    Though Christianity had been crushed centuries before, many continued to secretly practice that faith which was originally brought to Japan by the Portuguese in 1571.
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  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    Japanese history schoolbooks make no mention of what Japanese soldiers did to Chinese slaves in WWII, and as far as I know, Japan has never publicly made any apology for their war crimes. This is still a source of tension between Japan and China.
    Just google "comfort women". That should give you a nice sampling of the atrocities caused by Japan during their occupation in Korea. They were savages then.
  7.    #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    not true - the Japanese military was already attempting to negotiate the terms of surrender before the bombs were dropped. The only condition they had at the time was that the Emperor would not be touched, which Truman did not accept (though later it was accepted after the bombs were dropped).
    Among the things the Japanese attempted was to negotiate a "surrender" through the Russians.

    This was nonsensical from the start. Stalin had no interest in helping Imperial Japan on any level -- and he in fact wanted to go to war against them to gain territory in asia.

    But the bottom line in any of these negotiations was that those engaging in them were largely part of the civilian leadership (and the Emperor.)

    The military knew things were bad -- but most of them believed that they should NEVER surrender.

    Sadly, the A-bomb was needed to psychically shove the civilians to a fatalistic determination. They had to be so committed to ending the war on any terms -- (even as absolute supplicants) -- that THEY themselves were willing to die for THAT cause.
    Last edited by BARYE; 08/13/2005 at 01:46 AM.
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  8.    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    No, but nothing would have really stopped them from putting one on a submarine and sailing close to a major port.

    yes theoretically that was doable. And the Japanese had begun to produce increasingly sophisticated subs late in the war.

    But it would have been at best an improbable gamble against incredibly high odds.

    We OWNED their codes -- almost nothing sailed to or from Japan that we didn't know about or target.

    Our subs controlled their sea lanes and devastated both their cargo ships and their submarines.

    And our west coast was very far from Japan.

    There were as well many other stages yet to be overcome before they could make a bomb.

    Refining uranium to the required purity was not easy even for us -- and we devoted unlimited resources to a project far from the war zone.

    The Japanese had to do this while being constantly bombed by B29s, and while having only constrained power generation capacity, and limited resources overall.
    Last edited by BARYE; 08/13/2005 at 02:09 AM.
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  9.    #29  
    Much of what I wrote in this thread was pretty harsh on Japan, but it brought back another memory of Hiroshima that perhaps slightly balances out the bad things I said about Japan –- a place I really loved.



    Sept. ‘87
    When my Tokyo friend’s parents learned that I was going to be traveling through Hiroshima, they recommended that I go visit the Mazda Motors factory there.

    I thought it a slightly non-touristy thing to do, so I readily agreed. They telephoned, made the arrangements, and the factory knew about me when I then called the day before I got to Hiroshima.

    I got off the sleek Shinkansen train, exited the station and saw a stocky man in a suit and white gloves standing beside a pretty girl in front of a large shiny Japanese limousine. The man was holding open the back door while the girl displayed a white cardboard sign with my name almost spelled correctly. (Close enough to decipher anyway).

    A little embarrassed I smiled and said hello.

    I couldn’t help but notice a subtle bulging of their eyes upon seeing who they were meeting. The international non-verbal expression for “what the f**k”, needed no translation. A backpacking kid in shorts was not probably who they were expecting to meet.

    Together they bowed politely. She greeted me in Japanese and then in heavily accented english.

    Wearing a cute but rather incongruous uniform (almost like those once worn by hospital volunteer “candy stripers”) she was probably about 21 years of age. The suited white gloved man took from me my backpack and put it into the large interior.

    As we began our drive to the factory, she started her tour guide spiel about what a great company Mazda was. I of course wanted to know about her life, what she did to entertain herself, what life was like in Hiroshima –- anything but the canned script she’d started to recite.

    Whenever I interrupted her with a question – which I did repeatedly, she become clearly a little flustered and nervous about forgetting where she was in her script.

    I continued to ask about the effect of the war on Mazda, about how long it’d taken the company to recover, about the rebuilding of the city, about whether she knew of any A-bomb survivors. Unfortunately she had almost none of the answers to the questions I asked.

    I did learn though that she was not a full time tour guide for english speaking foreigners. Mostly she was a conventional OL –- office lady -– who’d studied some english in college, and had thereby come to be trained for the occasional tour guide task.

    I pulled a video camera from backpack to record our conversation. This was something that had probably never happened before to her, and she was likely torn between being flattered and annoyed.

    Getting inside the factory we were joined by a male executive who spoke nearly no english -– and a security guard. I was told that I could not take pictures in the factory.

    The girl continued with her script, but the executive accompanying us was presumably available to answer company things that only he’d know. I tried to think of questions so that he’d feel useful –- but I wasn’t much interested in what she’d translate him into saying.

    After the factory tour and a complementary lunch, I was brought to this boring little museum/exhibit that told the story of Mazda’s origins and history. There were the usual old cars, old trucks, and mini dioramas. All the info, of course, was in Japanese.

    But off the side, away from the main exhibit hall I spotted this amazingly cool car. I made a quick detour to get a closer look -– and a security guard who had been just hanging around suddenly became very vocal in Japanese and started waving his hands at me. I pretended not to understand what he meant and began to ask him what this car was, how much did it cost, where could I get one. He wanted to be polite, but was clearly getting exasperated. I reached into my backpack for my camera –- and now a second security guard joined us. They were both, it seemed, very unhappy. My camera was put away and I was made to get back to the main exhibits. I watched as a canvass tarp was pulled by the security guards over the nameless car.

    2-3 years later I learned that it was the Miata.
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  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    To coin a phrase, "cite".

    All we knew was that the Japanese fought to the last man on Tarawa, Iwo Jima and Okinawa. They fought like demons on Guadalcanal, New Britain and Guam. Harry Truman, the last Democrat to hold that office that was worth a damn, made a call. I'm sure it was a tough one.
    I did cite the Truman Archives (recently released to the public) in this post

    .
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  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Much of what I wrote in this thread was pretty harsh on Japan, but it brought back another memory of Hiroshima that perhaps slightly balances out the bad things I said about Japan –- a place I really loved.
    I've been to Japan several times myself. I was a guest at Kyoto University once and stayed there for a month while giving lectures. I got a chance to tour many places (including Hiroshima) and talk to many people.
    I must say that I was struck by the fact that most of the Japanese I spoke with did not have any bitterness or even resentment against us for the A-bomb. They mostly felt that they had been misled by their government at that time about the reasons for the war, and they were ignorant about the atrocities committed by their military at that time. One of the greatest things we ever did was rebuilding their country - they simply adored MacArthur - named streets and children after him. I met with some students whose grandparents had died or succumbed to the bombs and inspite of their sadness for the way they died, they had absolutelu no enimity towards the US. In fact most of them were interested in visiting the US to study for a while before returning back.
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  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Here is a great piece concerning the facts, maybe's, etc....of Japan nuke program and their relationship to Germany:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ja...atomic_program

    .
    sorry Hobbes ....the link you provided starts off by saying that it "gives way too much credit to a theory". Not much "facts" in there.

    Again - there was no evidence (except for the Nazi initiation of a program) that either Germany or Japan were even close to building a device.

    Even today, with all the infrastructure and 50 years of know-how, it still takes several months to extract and produce weapons-grade uranium.

    There is absolutely no evidence that Japan was just a few days from making a bomb with unprocessed uranium supplied by Germany (which has never been substantiated either since the U-boat was destroyed but never recovered).
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  13.    #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    I've been to Japan several times myself. I was a guest at Kyoto University once and stayed there for a month while giving lectures. I got a chance to tour many places (including Hiroshima) and talk to many people.
    I must say that I was struck by the fact that most of the Japanese I spoke with did not have any bitterness or even resentment against us for the A-bomb. They mostly felt that they had been misled by their government at that time about the reasons for the war, and they were ignorant about the atrocities committed by their military at that time. One of the greatest things we ever did was rebuilding their country - they simply adored MacArthur - named streets and children after him. I met with some students whose grandparents had died or succumbed to the bombs and inspite of their sadness for the way they died, they had absolutelu no enimity towards the US. In fact most of them were interested in visiting the US to study for a while before returning back.
    What you said about the Japanese and MaCarthur is very true.

    He is a weird paradox for me.

    A scummy rat ******* when it came to politics and liberty in america, in Japan he played this incredibly noble, benign, and sophisticated role that almost literally gave birth to progressive tolerant Japan.

    This was the same evil douce bag who crushed the WW1 bonus marchers here in Washington --- against the orders of his superiors ??!!
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  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    What you said about the Japanese and MaCarthur is very true.

    He is a weird paradox for me.

    A scummy rat ******* when it came to politics and liberty in america, in Japan he played this incredibly noble, benign, and sophisticated role that almost literally gave birth to progressive tolerant Japan.

    This was the same evil douce bag who crushed the WW1 bonus marchers here in Washington --- against the orders of his superiors ??!!

    yep he was a strange one - did some of the best things in the world when it came to leading the allied forces in the eastern theatre and in rebuliding Japan yet he also proposed dropping the A-bomb during the Korean war. He was relieved of command at that time.
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  15.    #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    yep he was a strange one - did some of the best things in the world when it came to leading the allied forces in the eastern theatre and in rebuliding Japan yet he also proposed dropping the A-bomb during the Korean war. He was relieved of command at that time.
    brilliant general, gifted speaker, incredibly aware of and sensitive to asian cultures.

    He was also an ally of Joe MaCarthy and a **** ant demagogue.

    After Gen. Marshall and Truman fired him for his semi-mutiny in Korea he intended to run for the presidentcy.

    Thankfully Eisenhower became president instead.

    But MACurthur was also the guy who brought unions to Japan, allowed communists to protest and organize, and protected women in the Japanese constitution.

    weird ...
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  16.    #36  
    apropos of this thread, Tues, 8PM the History Channel is doing a documentary on the Japanese effort to get an atomic bomb.


    Monday they broadcast a 2 hour examination of the thoughts, fears, and planning involved in the projected invasion of Japan.

    The Japanese army, though battered, starved, and poorly equipped, was far from defeated. It was more than capable of doing awful damage to our forces had we needed to invade.

    And because Japanese civilians were as blindly committed as their soldiers, there was the very serious fear that they would become non-uniform kamikazes -- in a way that makes iraqi jihadists look moderate.

    Also – and briefly made reference to in the program -- the biggest percentage of the Japanese army was in China. Invading and conquering Japan did not necessarily mean that this “chinese” army would have surrendered. It conceivably could have fought on independently in spite of the increasingly unfavorable war environment of China.
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