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  1. #141  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Is Afghanistan the only target where terrorist reside, train, recruit, and plan against us? What about Pakistan, Iran, Syria, Lybia (though after they saw what we did to Iraq they surrendered all their WMDs pretty dang fast), NK, etc...?

    How would you propose that this would work? Would you share top secret info concerning each state listed above so we can vote on what which state, if any, we should target next? Would you simply put all CIA, FBI, NSA, Pentagon reports available live on the net so we could all make an informed vote with the best info available at the time of the vote? Would we hold pay-per-view war scenarios from the pentagon so we can see several different possibilities with each choice given? How would handle recounts in times of immediate urgent national danger? Would you have an educational program so all those over 65 in Florida would know for sure what they were voting for?
    Afghanistan, thus the Taliban were directly related to harboring the group which did attack the U.S. and would likely have continued to do so.

    Again, never said vote on military operations. sigh
  2. #142  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Afghanistan, thus the Taliban were directly related to harboring the group which did attack the U.S. and would likely have continued to do so.
    I am in agreement about Afghanistan, but was wondering if you felt that Syria, Pakistan, Iran, NK, etc.. also have terrorist policies and/or practices that puts our nation in danger? If so, should we just watch them with intel and let them keep doing it?

    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Again, never said vote on military operations. sigh
    I saw your answer and asked a follow up question at the same time you posted.
  3. #143  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    I agree!

    I'm sorry, I'm still not following this. Since the whole country should have a say, (in your democratic scenario) how would they voice it?
    I think what daThomas is trying to say is that with a mandatory two years service in the military many of the political leaders (whose children could be in service) would perhaps think twice before committing to war so readily. Also for a political leader, once you serve in the military yourself, you would also realize the true cost and horrors of war.
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  4. #144  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    If you were not talking about voting....that is how I understood you answer as well.....then how would "the whole country has a stake in major military decisions like invading Iraq"?
    Conscription results in a military which represents the whole of society. I really don't have time to explain it right now. A simple google search should result in plenty of writings on this.
  5. #145  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    I think what daThomas is trying to say is that with a mandatory two years service in the military many of the political leaders (whose children could be in service) would perhaps think twice before committing to war so readily. Also for a political leader, once you serve in the military yourself, you would also realize the true cost and horrors of war.
    You can't have mandatory service. It does not work (other than an extreme case, such as WWII perhaps). It would cause enormous morale problems.
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  6. #146  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    I am in agreement about Afghanistan, but was wondering if you felt that Syria, Pakistan, Iran, NK, etc.. also have terrorist policies and/or practices that puts our nation in danger? If so, should we just watch them with intel and let them keep doing it?
    Absolutely not. They should be policed regardless of where they are. We have that capability. We should pressure countries to stop them instead of sucking up to them (ahem, pakistan). Afghanistan was unique in that there was a direct attack and it had to be replied to (oh yea, my jingoism was up plenty then kiddies).
  7. #147  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    You can't have mandatory service. It does not work (other than an extreme case, such as WWII perhaps). It would cause enormous morale problems.
    What do you think existed up to Vietnam?
  8. #148  
    And for the record, I served nine years in the US Army, and I would be vehemently opposed to any draft.
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  9. #149  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    You can't have mandatory service. It does not work (other than an extreme case, such as WWII perhaps). It would cause enormous morale problems.
    It's quite common in a few countries (including Israel), but not in any western nations. I agree - it would not work here, and we really do not need that. A voluntary force has much higher morale than a drafted conscript.
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  10. #150  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    What do you think existed up to Vietnam?
    Vietnam is a prime example of morale problems. Understand that the Military is an entirely different animal. There is no democracy. You do as you're told.

    Now, imagine taking someone who doesn't want to be in the service, and forcing him to serve two years. Right off the bat, he's disgruntled. Now send him to a FOB somewhere in a warzone, he's really disgruntled. Now have someone shooting at him....

    Do you see the problem??
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  11. #151  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Economic draft??? Not many do it for the money.

    Sure every sector would like to have it their way, but the leaders are in agreement that elections are appropriate and are happening, unfortunately the insurgency continues to use suicide bombers, roadside bombs and terror tactics to delay the process. Have you ever wondered where they get the materials (can you say Al-Queda). Do you remember the news stories of the terrorist training camps that were found in (especially in Northern Iraq) and eliminated?

    Even if you refuse to accept the facts, Al-Queda did and still has a presence in Iraq.

    (I leave for a few hours and all hell breaks out ...)

    Al-Queda is very much there NOW.

    But before our generalissimo’s little “bring it on” escapade, Iraq was a cowed police state -– under the boot of a ruthless tyrant who owned a paranoid security service whose overlapping layers of heartlessness kept EVERYONE in line.

    Saddam did not want revolutionaries or Al-Queda -– and Al-Queda despised Saddam (as they do most of the existing leadership of most every country, but most especially those in the middle east.)

    In fact the only place where Al-Queda sort of existed before the invasion was in a northern corner Iraqi Kurdistan (on the border of Iran) -– where al-Zarqawi was conducting a minor but destructive campaign of killing and sabotage against the democratic Kurdish area.

    The Kurds repeatedly asked junior for our consent and ***istance to go after and destroy al-Zarqawi (who had killed hundreds of Kurds).

    Junior though refused. He wanted to use the existence of al-Zarqawi (in this area that Saddam did not control) –- as evidence to support the lie that Saddam was a base for terroristsm.

    (Hobbes -- this is my recollection, I will attempt to source this )
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  12. #152  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Do you see the problem??
    Yeah Fragging. It just didnt happen in Vietnam either, a couple of months ago the Army just prosecuted someone for it.
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  13. #153  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Vietnam is a prime example of morale problems. Understand that the Military is an entirely different animal. There is no democracy. You do as you're told.

    Now, imagine taking someone who doesn't want to be in the service, and forcing him to serve two years. Right off the bat, he's disgruntled. Now send him to a FOB somewhere in a warzone, he's really disgruntled. Now have someone shooting at him....

    Do you see the problem??
    I'm not even referring ot a war time military yet. But yes, you point out the influence of the people saying, is this what we want for our military, no.
  14. #154  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Yeah Fragging. It just didnt happen in Vietnam either, a couple of months ago the Army just prosecuted someone for it.
    I know. The S.O.B. was attached to the 101st Abn. Div. (if you're speaking of the same incident.) I've been out over ten years, but that one was still personal for me.
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    #155  
    T2, useful- serve a purpose demanding an answer as to why the president killed her son? Her family could use her home right now.

    His order-that is reaching, so if my boss told me to go get supplies from another area in town and I was killed by a drunk driver my boss killed me? NO

    My bet - terminology, lots of reasons to believe Saddam supported Al-Quada to include training camps in Iraq

    Right to speak is no issue, but many posts sound as if the idividual is speaking for military individuals when they are ranting for themselves

    Again speak all you want but do not phrase as if you are there or have the right to speak for those that are or have been there.

    Criticize was probably the wrong choice of words. I do beleive when you demean the Commaner in Chief you demean the men under his command especially when it is done in such a public forum. It sends a message to the grunt on the ground that we as a nation are not behind the men and women fighting. When we watched C-N and saw the protests and the insults it did have an impact. It appeared that the whole nation had that attitude.

    Easy to challeng the descison when you do not have to make the choice or have all the information that he has available. Right or wrong, invade or not someone will say it is the wrong choice. The choice was made lets work on doing the best we can with the decision.

    You are absolutely right, the cost of this war or any war will be astronomical. How high would it have been if we had not intervened when we did, what if Saddam did acquuire a weapon capable of dispersing biological agents into an area populated by US soldiers (Saudi, UAE, Kuwait).
  16. cardio's Avatar
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    #156  
    Insertion, I agree I oppose the draft 100%
  17. #157  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    My bet - terminology, lots of reasons to believe Saddam supported Al-Quada to include training camps in Iraq...


    ...You are absolutely right, the cost of this war or any war will be astronomical. How high would it have been if we had not intervened when we did, what if Saddam did acquuire a weapon capable of dispersing biological agents into an area populated by US soldiers (Saudi, UAE, Kuwait).
    You really don't have any desire to think about this individually. You simply must cling to these beliefs even now. Likely, it is more comfortable to maintain this false belief system than to allow for the fact that you were duped. I believe it's referred to as cognitive dissonance.
  18. #158  
    http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/27/in...ce6310&ei=5070

    Instruction and Methods From Al Qaeda Took Root in North Iraq

    By C. J. CHIVERS
    DARGA SHARKHAN, Iraq, April 22, 2003 — The two-inch-thick manual on killing, discovered in an abandoned bomb laboratory here early this month, offers instruction in Al Qaeda's array of lethal demolition skills.

    With a text in Arabic complemented by diagrams taken from American military manuals, the document offers lessons for rigging explosives, setting and concealing booby traps, and wiring an alarm clock to detonate a bomb.

    The book is a photocopy of one volume of the Jihad Encyclopedia, the technical manual that American officials have said is used by Al Qaeda in its war against the West. Other copies were found in terrorist training camps and guest houses in Afghanistan after the defeat of the Taliban in 2001.

    This copy, though, was found not in Afghanistan but in this valley in the Kurdish enclave in northern Iraq. It was recovered by Kurdish security officials accompanied by a reporter in a training center operated by Ansar al-Islam, a local armed party...

    Ansar established itself late in 2001, as the war in Afghanistan was winding down, uniting previously splintered Islamic parties. It occupied a border region in northeastern Iraq that has been out of Saddam Hussein's control since 1991.

    The group waged war against the zone's Kurdish government, destabilizing the region with as*ination attempts, guerrilla attacks and suicide bombings. The United States has pointed to its activities as one justification for the war in Iraq.

    American and Kurdish officials say the group received support from Al Qaeda and coordinated activities through Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a Jordanian identified by the United States as a lieutenant of Osama bin Laden...

    ...No clear evidence has emerged of operational links between Ansar and Mr. Hussein's government...

    ...Kurdish officials had estimated that Ansar al-Islam had about 650 members, but American officials now say they believe it had grown to 1,000 or more. The p*ssports collected show that many new international fighters entered on Iranian tourist or pilgrimage visas...





    Al Qaeda Plans A Front in Iraq

    By Peter Finn and Susan Schmidt
    Washington Post Foreign Service
    Sunday, September 7, 2003; Page A01

    BERLIN -- Two years after the attacks on the United States, Osama bin Laden's leadership cadre has been isolated and weakened and is increasingly reliant on the violent actions of local radicals around the world to maintain its profile. But the al Qaeda network is determined to open a new front in Iraq to sustain itself as the vanguard of radical Islamic groups fighting holy war, according to European, American and Arab intelligence sources.

    The turn toward Iraq was made in February, as U.S. forces were preparing to attack, the sources said. Two seasoned operatives met at a safe house in eastern Iran. One of them was Mohammed Ibrahim Makawi, the military chief of al Qaeda, who is better known as Saif Adel. He welcomed a guest, Abu Musab Zarqawi, who had recently fled Iraq's Kurdish northern region in anticipation of the U.S. targeting of a radical group with which he was affiliated, Arab intelligence sources said.

    The encounter resulted in the dispatch of Zarqawi to become al Qaeda's man in Iraq, opening a new chapter in the history of the group and a serious threat to American forces there.

    "The monster is already near you," said one Arab official who is familiar with the intelligence and who spoke on condition that he not be identified by name or nationality. "I don't know if you can kill it."

    The official added: "Iraq is the new battleground. It is the perfect place. It will be the perfect place."

    After the fall of the Taliban in Afghanistan, the locus of al Qaeda's degraded leadership moved to Iran. The Iranian security services, which answer to the country's powerful Islamic clerics, protected the leadership,
    including Adel and a son of bin Laden's, Saad, as well as other senior figures, according to the intelligence officials...
    Last edited by BARYE; 08/10/2005 at 06:44 PM.
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  19. #159  
    ******inate

    edit: sorry...just had to see for myself
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  20. #160  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    ******inate

    edit: sorry...just had to see for myself
    weird brainless sensoring system

    (P*asport and as*sinate were sensored)
    Last edited by BARYE; 08/10/2005 at 06:46 PM.
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