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  1. #121  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    She wants to ask the Prez why he killed her son. He didn't kill her son, an insurgent killed her son. btw you've been badmouthin W for a while, cut it out.
    I never claimned NOT to be bad mouthing the W admin. You on the other hand have claimed in this thread that you were not bad mouthing this mother of a Military man who gave his life in Iraq, which you most plainly are.
  2. NRG
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    #122  
    Support the troops and their families........................................ so long as they don't disagree with you. Seems to be the (R)'s motto.
  3. #123  
    Just give her a break. In her grief, she has allowed herself to become a pawn of the left. She is now the centerpiece of Michael Moore's website.



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    #124  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Again it's been ponted out in this thread over and over again that those who volunteer in defense of this country expect to be put in harms way for good reason and with the best management of the situation as possible.

    Some truth, I guess everyone has an opinon on what "for good reason" means. I think removing an admitted abusive tyrant is good reason. I believe giving the Iragi people the oppurtunity to live out from under constant threat of murder and torture is good reason. I believe removing terrorist training camps is an outstanding reason. I believe removing someone who has repeatedly used weapons of mass destruction (chemical weapons) on his own country a good reason.

    This administration has failed the military men and women on both counts.
    False statement. This administration has not failed me, nor do the vast majority of my brothers and sisters in arms feel the have been failed. Yes you will get the individuals who want their name and face in the media and we know the media is more than willing to oblige and repeat their stroy at every oppurtunity.
  5. #125  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    False statement. This administration has not failed me, nor do the vast majority of my brothers and sisters in arms feel the have been failed. Yes you will get the individuals who want their name and face in the media and we know the media is more than willing to oblige and repeat their stroy at every oppurtunity.
    I think ignoring one's own General's warnings and cabinet warnings about what would be needed to accomplish the goal is failing those in service.
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    #126  
    Is that a vote for higher taxes to provide more equipment and a pay raise for the military men and women. Or are you volunteering to serve so we have one more member in the armed services. I think you will see those are the two items that the warnings covered, not someone may get killed. We could always use more funds for pay and equipment and a larger military, of course with that comes higher taxes to pay for those items. So in that since yes the military has been failed, by the individuals that do all they can to pay the least amount of taxes, scam the govt by welfare fraud and vote against any tax increase. Do you fit any of these categories, if so you failed me.
  7. #127  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Is that a vote for higher taxes to provide more equipment and a pay raise for the military men and women. Or are you volunteering to serve so we have one more member in the armed services. I think you will see those are the two items that the warnings covered, not someone may get killed. We could always use more funds for pay and equipment and a larger military, of course with that comes higher taxes to pay for those items. So in that since yes the military has been failed, by the individuals that do all they can to pay the least amount of taxes, scam the govt by welfare fraud and vote against any tax increase. Do you fit any of these categories, if so you failed me.
    Yes, I will pay higher taxes for military and less in corporate welfare any day. I will serve only when there's mandatory 2 year service for every citizen as I believe it democratizes our military.

    The neo-cons were warned by the Generals they would need more people on the ground to occupy Iraq. They were told by Powell of the 3 specific interest groups which would vie for power in the presence of a power vacumn. Yes, the Bush team blew it and they were warned.
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    #128  
    As I suspected. No sacrifice for our country unless you make me do it and then I will complain because you make me do it. Everyone I know will also complain because you make me do it.

    Hey, what a concept 3 groups vying for power. Novel concept for a country that did not have any say in the 1 group in power.

    The Bush team did a fine job with the situation. Yes it cost us in the lives of our friends and families (still not as many as 9-11 cost) however it probably prevented multiple deaths of civilians from additional terrorist strikes. If there was not a rapid and devastating response to the terrorist action it would continue (remeber the Clinton era and the attacks that did not get punished, yeah they kept happening, the Saudi hotel, the USS Cole)
    Last edited by cardio; 08/10/2005 at 05:20 PM.
  9. #129  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Yes, I will pay higher taxes for military and less in corporate welfare any day. I will serve only when there's mandatory 2 year service for every citizen as I believe it democratizes our military.
    I'm just curious. Define "democratizes our military" for me.
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  10. #130  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    As I suspected. No sacrifice for our country unless you make me do it and then I will complain because you make me do it. Everyone I know will also complain because you make me do it.
    Bull****. Don't misrepresent what i said. I will not serve in a non-conscription military NOT because i need to be forced, but because I believe it democratizes the military. Otherwise, we have an economic draft.

    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Hey, what a concept 3 groups vying for power. Novel concept for a country that did not have any say in the 1 group in power.
    Yea, would be a wonderful concept if the safe and secured transfer of power had been planned. Any ***** who knew half a tard about Iraq could easily have predicted; Kurds will want a northern independent state and keep the oil there (this would destabalize three surrounding nations with their own Kurdish populations desiring independence). Shias would control the mid to lower half and of course that oil revenue and will likely create a NON-Secular gov't. The Sunnis, minority formerly firmly in control of most of the country, seem to be destined for the short end of the stick but what's this?!?! They also were the majority with military training and Intelligence training. Makes for a helluva an insurgency.


    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    The Bush team did a fine job with the situation. Yes it cost us in the lives of our friends and families (still not as many as 9-11 cost) however it probably prevented multiple deaths of civilians from additional terrorist strikes. If there was not a rapid and devastating response to the terrorist action it would continue (remeber the Clinton era and the attacks that did not get punished, yeah they kept happening, the Saudi hotel, the US Cole)
    How could you be so naive as to continue to tie Al-Queda to Iraq?
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    #131  
    I think he means we would all be able to vote on following orders or not as our mood changed. I say lets democatize the speed limit
  12. #132  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    I'm just curious. Define "democratizes our military" for me.
    When the whole country has a stake in major military decisions like invading Iraq, you would not see something like it happen with the ease the Bush admin did so.

    You would have, however, seen just as rapid a response to the taliban after 9-11 BUT we would be naion building there instead of ignoring it soit can happen again as we currently are.
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    #133  
    Economic draft??? Not many do it for the money.

    Sure every sector would like to have it their way, but the leaders are in agreement that elections are appropriate and are happening, unfortunately the insurgency continues to use suicide bombers, roadside bombs and terror tactics to delay the process. Have you ever wondered where they get the materials (can you say Al-Queda). Do you remember the news stories of the terrorist training camps that were found in (especially in Northern Iraq) and eliminated?

    Even if you refuse to accept the facts, Al-Queda did and still has a presence in Iraq.
  14. cardio's Avatar
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    #134  
    Are you serious, the whole country with a stake. We have a hard enough time admitting who won the presidency. OK, OK, OK one more time if you are in favor of invading text message 1-800-freedom, in favor of not invading text 1-800-whocares.
    I thought that is why we had elected leaders who voted in great majority to invade.
  15. #135  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Economic draft??? Not many do it for the money.
    Just tell me what economic areas recruiters focus on? And there's no reason those who want to Serve can't go career in a conscription situation.


    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Sure every sector would like to have it their way, but the leaders are in agreement that elections are appropriate and are happening, unfortunately the insurgency continues to use suicide bombers, roadside bombs and terror tactics to delay the process. Have you ever wondered where they get the materials (can you say Al-Queda). Do you remember the news stories of the terrorist training camps that were found in (especially in Northern Iraq) and eliminated?

    Even if you refuse to accept the facts, Al-Queda did and still has a presence in Iraq.
    NO. You cannot make statements like that without citing pre-invasion Al Queda presence in Iraq.

    You also cannot logically say there's Al Queda in Iraq AFTER we invaded so that means we where fighting Al Queda by invading Iraq. That makes NO SENSE.
  16. #136  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    When the whole country has a stake in major military decisions like invading Iraq, you would not see something like it happen with the ease the Bush admin did so..
    Is Afghanistan the only target where terrorist reside, train, recruit, and plan against us? What about Pakistan, Iran, Syria, Lybia (though after they saw what we did to Iraq they surrendered all their WMDs pretty dang fast), NK, etc...?

    How would you propose that this would work? Would you share top secret info concerning each state listed above so we can vote on what which state, if any, we should target next? Would you simply put all CIA, FBI, NSA, Pentagon reports available live on the net so we could all make an informed vote with the best info available at the time of the vote? Would we hold pay-per-view war scenarios from the pentagon so we can see several different possibilities with each choice given? How would handle recounts in times of immediate urgent national danger? Would you have an educational program so all those over 65 in Florida would know for sure what they were voting for?
  17. #137  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Are you serious, the whole country with a stake. We have a hard enough time admitting who won the presidency. OK, OK, OK one more time if you are in favor of invading text message 1-800-freedom, in favor of not invading text 1-800-whocares.
    I thought that is why we had elected leaders who voted in great majority to invade.
    I NEVER said military decisions would be voted on. That is completely tard-bot.

    How many elected leaders had children in the military when they allowed the invasion?
  18. #138  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    I NEVER said military decisions would be voted on. That is completely tard-bot.
    I agree!

    I'm sorry, I'm still not following this. Since the whole country should have a say, (in your democratic scenario) how would they voice it?
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  19. #139  
    Cardio-welcome to the discussion. I have a few questions on your comment.
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Yes I feel the for the womans pain, however she needs to direct her anger/pain/energy into a useful manner.
    'Useful' is subjective. Is your definition 'better' than hers? Apparently she want's answers from the man who put her son in harms way. That may very well be more useful for her.

    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    This mother lives 5 miles from a major military installation (I live in the same town). Yes her story has changed as she has let her anger run her life and make her miserable, effect her family members that are trying to cope with the loss (yes I know some of them). Maybe she could volunteer at the major medical center on that installation and use her energy to cheer up sick children, or provide support to indiviudals injured by drunk drivers, sit and talk to family members of terroist attacks.
    Those are all great suggestions but I don't think it automatically makes her approach any less 'useful' (but maybe more utilitarian).

    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    The President did not kill her son,
    No but it was his order (and apparently it wasn't "As a last resort".)

    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    should we be in Iraq, YES.
    Arguable...

    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Does anyone remember 9-11? I know, I know there has been no direct link to Saddam flying the plane, but I bet he helped fianance, train, recruit, hide, encourage those that did.
    Should the mother be expected to sacrifice her son's life on your BET?

    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Ask the Kurds if they want Saddam and his regime back in power.
    I do think that Sadaam was 'bad' and that there is a great argument for his removal.

    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    For all those bashing the president, senate, etc how many days have you spent in the military and/or in combat zone? Been there done that for over 24 years (yes during Desert Storm and Iraq).
    I should qualify under your criteria but this 'test' is not a very logical one. Someone's right to speak is tied to whatever length of service that they have given to their country?

    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    If you are not willing to step up to the plate and serve your country DO NOT CRITIZE OR JUDGE those that do, to include the leadership.
    Again, I don't think I need to point out how ridiculous this is? When you served our country...were you only serving others like you who served or were you serving ALL of America. The litmus test for the 1st amendment isnt tied to having to do anything. You automatically have that right under the constitution.

    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    When you criticize the leadership you also criticize those that are faithful to carry out the orders that come down.
    I don't know why this argument gets regurgitated and put out every time someone doesnt like what someone else has to say about our leadership (let alone our President). First off, does the grunt on the ground make any real decisions on how to prosecute the war? No. Well if that's true, how does it make sense to hold him accountable when our leadership have made a mistake? Is the grunt in the planning phase of an operation (or invasion)? Not likely. So (IMO) its pretty silly to hold him accountable when he is just following orders to the best of his ability. When someone criticizes the leadership...then its just that...a criticism of the leadership. If things are not going as we have planned (and hopefully contingency planned) then we should question what we are doing and why we are doing it. Failure to do so is irresponsible to our men on the ground. You stated that you have been in the military for 24 years...I guarantee you that when a mistake was made, YOU took the heat because that is what leadership does, that is what it implies. No one turns around and says "Don't criticize me or your going to criticize my troops." That's not how it happens and I would be willing to be that is not the type of leader you were. (And as a side note...if a leader did that, they wouldn't be leading very long.)

    There is no logical reason why when someone criticizes the leadership who make war decisions that it should be interpreted to criticizing the people who make that plan work. I challenge anyone to give me an argument to the contrary.

    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    None of us have had to make that decision unless one of you are a former POTUS.
    IMO you don't have to be the Pres. to be able to weigh the pros and cons of going to war and the costs of human lives.

    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    We are all entitled to our opinon and have the freedom (thanks to the leaders of our country and the men and women that died to give us that freedom) to express our opinon. As a retired military member I feel we are safer in America today than we were prior to taking Saddam out of power.
    In many ways, you are probably right. But the costs of this war have still not been fully realized.
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  20. #140  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    I NEVER said military decisions would be voted on. That is completely tard-bot.
    If you were not talking about voting....that is how I understood you answer as well.....then how would "the whole country has a stake in major military decisions like invading Iraq"?
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