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  1. #561  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    You really like that new the thumbs down smiley, I will have to start calling you Nero.

    Anyway, I am not saying CG manipulated anything. She obviously got it from some source? Is that a fair assumption? Maybe it is the source I am referring to??
    Okay, but how is the source manipulating anything? You were a 91, (I'm guessing,) if anyone here would know it would be you, that accidents happen. Sometimes resulting in death.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  2.    #562  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    You really like that new the thumbs down smiley, I will have to start calling you Nero.

    Anyway, I am not saying CG manipulated anything. She obviously got it from some source? Is that a fair assumption? Maybe it is the source I am referring to??
    Not following ya.
  3. #563  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    Somebody was talking about a death rate. It implies a relative risk of death right?

    The number of deaths per year does not have anything to do with the risk of death if the two groups you are comparing are not near the same size.
    When you make a post, why dont you just leave it. You were going on about the numerator and denominator whatever...

    Im not good at math but is says death rate/year. That would be deaths per 365 days (366 in leap years). So we could calculate deaths per day and compare it back to the other time period. Why are you having trouble with the fact that the MSM didnt care about those numbers before now.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  4. #564  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Okay, but how is the source manipulating anything? You were a 91, (I'm guessing,) if anyone here would know it would be you, that accidents happen. Sometimes resulting in death.
    yes they do, and the military is dangerous. I can tell you firsthand

    But to say the death rate of US military at peace is twice that of military in Iraq is nothing but misleading.
  5. #565  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    yes they do, and the military is dangerous. I can tell you firsthand

    But to say the death rate of US military at peace is twice that of military in Iraq is nothing but misleading.
    I still don't see how it's misleading though.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  6.    #566  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    I still don't see how it's misleading though.
    I'm confused. CM wth are you trying to say?
  7. #567  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    The inference is that your point is THE point, and I think that while you may have a valid point, it certainly isnt The point. Get my point?
    I got your point.

    (That being said, an assumption is not the same as an inference. Also, even if you infer from my post that I was saying that my point was THE point, I don't think it was a fair/logical inference to make. Because you did so, I feel that I should appologize for the confusion. )

    Now, getting past that point, its easy to see why the MSM didnt report all those deaths during non-combat years....because it wouldn't sell headlines. The death toll rising in Iraq is a constant 'talking point' (per the other thread).

    Another example, the 444 day Iran hostage situation that was handled by Pres. Carter.

    Dan Rather made his name during that time (not that I am old enough to remember it all on tv every night.)
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  8. #568  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Another example, the 444 day Iran hostage situation that was handled by Pres. Carter.

    Dan Rather made his name during that time (not that I am old enough to remember it all on tv every night.)
    Actually, it was Ted Koppel who made his name from that. (The birth of Nightline)
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  9. #569  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    When you make a post, why dont you just leave it. You were going on about the numerator and denominator whatever...

    Im not good at math but is says death rate/year. That would be deaths per 365 days (366 in leap years). So we could calculate deaths per day and compare it back to the other time period. Why are you having trouble with the fact that the MSM didnt care about those numbers before now.

    let me explain some more, here is an example:

    100 out of a million people die each year in group A
    10 out of 1000 people die each year in group B

    The yearly death rate of group A is 10 times the yearly death rate of group B but the risk of death in group B (10% a year) is 10 times the risk of death in group A (1% a year)

    Saying the yearly death rate is higher for group A and not talking about the total numbers, does nothing but cover up the fact that the risk of death for group B is much greater.

    the total military is a much bigger number of people than the number of people just in Iraq, so it is analogous, on a lesser scale to group A and group B.

    does that make sense?
  10. #570  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    let me explain some more, here is an example:

    100 out of a million people die each year in group A
    10 out of 1000 people die each year in group B

    The yearly death rate of group A is 10 times the yearly death rate of group B but the risk of death in group B (10% a year) is 10 times the risk of death in group A (1% a year)

    Saying the yearly death rate is higher for group A and not talking about the total numbers, does nothing but cover up the fact that the risk of death for group B is much greater.

    does that make sense?
    No it doesnt make sense. During the years 83-96 we had 10s or even 100s of thousands more peeps in the military. It is not hard to imagine that there were more accidential deaths during that time. You are trying to push your opinion against numbers from the DoD. Doesnt fly.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  11. #571  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix

    does that make sense?
    No. I mean, I understand it, and figured you might be trying to do a statistical analysis of it.

    But still, a death is a death!

    Personal observation, in 1985, I was with the 101st Abn Div. About two weeks before Christmas, we lost 248 men who were on their way home from Egypt. They died in a plane crash.

    I may wrong, but I don't recall our military suffering 248 deaths in one day in either Iraq or Afghanistan (or combined.) I haven't read the link that Claire gave, only her quoted text, but it seems to me their point was how some deaths are seemingly insignificant to the Press, or even some of the public at large.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  12. #572  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    No it doesnt make sense. During the years 83-96 we had 10s or even 100s of thousands more peeps in the military. It is not hard to imagine that there were more accidential deaths during that time.
    Yes, you are right CG. So you do get it. Great. Stupid me, I thought you were trying to use the death rate to somehow say it is more dangerous to be in the military during peace than to be in Iraq right now, which had me wondering.

    Please excuse my assumptions and I appreciate the clarification, thanks!
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 08/24/2005 at 09:47 PM.
  13. #573  
    Number of physicians in the US: 700,000.

    Accidental deaths caused by physicians per year: 120,000.
    Accidental deaths per physician.... 0.171
    (U.S. Dept. of Health Human Services)

    Number of gun owners in the US: 80,000,000.

    Number of accidental gun deaths per year (all age groups) 1,500.
    Accidental deaths per gun owner: 0.0000188
    (Benton County News Tribune on 17th of November, 1999).

    Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  14. #574  
    Wed Aug 24 2005 16:53:27 ET

    NAMPA, Idaho -- President Bush today took direct aim at Cindy Sheehan, the anti-war protester who has set up camp near the Bushes Texas ranch and purports to speak for military moms who, like her, have lost a son in the Iraq war.

    Speaking to hundreds of Idaho National Guardsmen, the president singled out military mom Tammy Pruett of Pocatello, Idaho, whose husband and five sons have all served in Iraq.

    "Tammy has four sons serving in Iraq right now with the Idaho National Guard: Eric, Evan, Greg and Jeff. Last year her husband, Leon, and another son, Aaron, returned from Iraq, where they helped train Iraqi firefighters in Mosul.

    "Tammy says this -- and I want you to hear this -- 'I know that if something happens to one of the boys, they would leave this world doing what they believe, what they think is right for our country.'

    "And I guess you couldn't ask for a better way of life than giving it for something that you believe in. America lives in freedom because of families like the Pruetts."

    The crowd, made up mostly of military family members, broke into cheers and chants of "U-S-A! U-S-A!"
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  15. NRG
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    #575  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    And for the record, will someone PM me these talking points, cuz I'm feeling left out for never getting any.
    Sorry no PM but, ask and you shall receive. Here is the RNC's talking points for calling talk radio shows and such.

    Quote Originally Posted by The RNC
    Jobs & Economy

    Pass legislation that promotes economic growth - including making tax cuts permanent.
    Strengthen Social Security.
    Strengthen high schools to prepare Americans for jobs in the 21st Century.


    Strength & Security

    Support increased base pay for service members and health care benefits for veterans.
    Stand with President Bush on increased defense spending that better prepares and protects our military.
    Show support for the President’s improvements in Homeland Security to defend our country.


    Tax Reform

    Reform the tax code to ensure a simpler, fairer and more pro-growth system.
    Restrain spending by the Federal Government.
    Make tax cuts permanent for individuals and small businesses.


    Education

    Support a new high school initiative to help states hold high schools accountable for teaching all students.
    Promote accelerated mathematics and science achievement for all secondary students, and especially low-achieving students.
    Accelerate student achievement with Advanced Placement, International Baccalaureate and State Scholars.


    Social Security

    Fix Social Security now to avoid dramatically higher taxes, massive new borrowing or sudden and severe cuts in Social Security benefits or other government programs.
    Reform Social Security for America’s younger workers - our children and grandchildren.
    Remind your elected officials that Social Security cannot afford to continue paying benefits with the current pay-as-you-go system.


    Nominations

    Appoint judges who strictly interpret the law.
    Oppose the unprecedented use of Senate filibusters.
    Fix the broken nomination process.


    Immigration Reform

    Stand with President Bush in his efforts to protect the homeland by controlling the borders.
    Protect the rights of legal immigrants and match willing workers with willing employers.
    Support incentives for temporary workers to return to their home countries and families.



    Faith & Values

    Fight to ensure that faith-based and community charities can participate in Federal, state, and local programs.
    Support President Bush's Access to Recovery program, a proposed three-year, $600 million drug treatment voucher initiative, will give recovering addicts expanded access to a full range of faith-based and community providers.
    Support legislation providing mentoring for children of prisoners.

    http://www.gop.com/GetActive/CallTalkRadio.aspx
    Just a note: I agree with probably 90% of these.
    The only problem is how and if they ever get to doing this.
    Last edited by NRG; 08/24/2005 at 11:54 PM.
  16. #576  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.
    what are the statistics on smart aleck journalists?
  17. #577  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    what are the statistics on smart aleck journalists?
    Will you be safer if pencils are banned. BANNING PENCILS DOESN'T KEEP THEM OUT OF THE HANDS OF VIOLENT CRIMINALS
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  18. #578  
    The Swift Boating of Cindy Sheehan

    By FRANK RICH NY TImes
    August 21, 2005

    CINDY SHEEHAN couldn't have picked a more apt date to begin the vigil that ambushed a president: Aug. 6 was the fourth anniversary of that fateful 2001 Crawford vacation day when George W. Bush responded to an intelligence briefing titled "Bin Laden Determined to Attack Inside the United States" by going fishing. On this Aug. 6 the president was no less determined to shrug off bad news. Though 14 marine reservists had been killed days earlier by a roadside bomb in Haditha, his national radio address that morning made no mention of Iraq. ...So it goes with a president who hasn't foreseen any of the setbacks in the war he fabricated against an enemy who did not attack inside the United States in 2001.

    When these setbacks happen in Iraq itself, the administration punts. But when they happen at home, there's a game plan. Once Ms. Sheehan could no longer be ignored, the Swift Boating began. Character assassination is the Karl Rove tactic of choice, eagerly mimicked by his media surrogates, whenever the White House is confronted by a critic who challenges it on matters of war. The Swift Boating is especially vicious if the critic has more battle scars than a president who connived to serve stateside and a vice president who had "other priorities" during Vietnam.

    The most prominent smear victims have been Bush political opponents with heroic Vietnam résumés: John McCain, Max Cleland, John Kerry. But the list of past targets stretches from the former counterterrorism czar Richard Clarke to Specialist Thomas Wilson, the grunt who publicly challenged Donald Rumsfeld about inadequately armored vehicles last December. The assault on the whistle-blower Joseph Wilson - the diplomat described by the first President Bush as "courageous" and "a true American hero" for confronting Saddam to save American hostages in 1991 - was so toxic it may yet send its perpetrators to jail.

    ... the attack on Cindy Sheehan surfaced early on Fox News, where she was immediately labeled a "crackpot"... The right-wing blogosphere quickly spread tales of her divorce, ... her supposed political flip-flops, her incendiary sloganeering and her association with known ticket-stub-carrying attendees of "Fahrenheit 9/11." Rush Limbaugh went so far as to declare that Ms. Sheehan's "story is nothing more than forged documents - there's nothing about it that's real." ...

    When the Bush mob attacks critics like Ms. Sheehan, its highest priority is to change the subject. ... Richard Clarke's character, then we stop talking about the administration's pre-9/11 inattentiveness to terrorism. If reservist Thomas Wilson is trashed as an insubordinate plant of the "liberal media," we forget the Pentagon's abysmal failure to give our troops adequate armor (a failure that persists today, eight months after he spoke up). If we focus on Joseph Wilson's wife, we lose the big picture of how the administration twisted intelligence to gin up the threat of Saddam's nonexistent W.M.D.'s. ...

    ...He died with six other soldiers on a rescue mission in Sadr City on April 4, 2004, at the age of 24, the week after four American security workers had been mutilated in Falluja and two weeks after he arrived in Iraq. This was almost a year after the president had declared the end of "major combat operations" ...

    ...the insurgents who slaughtered Specialist Sheehan and his cohort were militiamen loyal to Moktada al-Sadr, the anti-American Shiite cleric. ...

    ...in the month before Casey Sheehan's death, Mr. Rumsfeld typically went out of his way to inflate the size and prowess of these Iraqi security forces, claiming ...that there were "over 200,000 Iraqis that have been trained and equipped" and that they were "out on the front line taking the brunt of the violence." ...

    ... Moktada al-Sadr ... remains as much a player as ever in the new "democratic" Iraq. He controls one of the larger blocs in the National Assembly. His loyalists may have been responsible for last month's apparently vengeful murder of Steven Vincent, the American freelance journalist who wrote in The Times that Mr. Sadr's followers had infiltrated Basra's politics and police force. ...


    ...As Ms. Zappala noted with rage, her son's death came only a few weeks after Mr. Bush regaled the Radio and Television Correspondents' Association banquet in Washington with a scripted comedy routine featuring photos of him pretending to look for W.M.D.'s in the Oval Office. "We'd like to know if he still finds humor in the fabrications that justified the war that killed my son," Ms. Zappala wrote. ..

    ...Bush's motorcade left a grieving mother in the dust to speed on to a fund-raiser, ... The strategy of fighting a war without shared national sacrifice has at last backfired, just as the strategy of Swift Boating the war's critics has reached its Waterloo before Patrick Fitzgerald's grand jury in Washington. The 24/7 cable and Web attack dogs can keep on sliming Cindy Sheehan. ...

    NY Times link
    Last edited by BARYE; 08/25/2005 at 12:23 PM.
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  19. #579  
    2005-08-24) -- An internal White House memo, leaked today, indicates how President George Bush initially planned to address Cindy Sheehan's question: What "noble cause" did my son die for?

    The draft memo includes suggestions from White House communications staff, followed by several paragraphs apparently handwritten by the president.

    While handwriting experts from CBS News continue to pore over the document to verify its authenticity, here is the text of the president's alleged response to the grieving Mom whose protest has captured the hearts of America's journalists.

    Dear Mrs. Sheehan,
    You have asked me to identify the noble cause for which your son died. I have not answered you personally out of respect for the nobility of your son's sacrifice.

    Being president forces me into the spotlight, but I would rather stand in the shadows of men like Casey Sheehan.

    Directing national attention on my response to your protest creates a distraction from what matters. The focus of our attention, and our admiration, should rest on people like Casey Sheehan, who stand in the breach when evil threatens to break out and consume a helpless people.

    The running story on the news networks should be the valiant efforts of our troops -- the merchants of mercy who export freedom and import honor. They trade their own lives for the sake of others.

    As a result, we live in a nation where a woman can camp outside of the president's house and verbally attack the president for weeks on end without fear of prison, torture or death. And the number of nations where such protest is possible has multiplied thanks to the work of our military.

    You ask for what noble cause your son died?

    In a sense he died so that people like you, who passionately oppose government policies, can freely express that opposition. As you camp in Crawford, you should take off your shoes, for you stand on holy ground. This land was bought with the blood of men like your son.

    Now, 25 million Iraqis cry out to enjoy the life you take for granted. Most of them will never use their freedom to denigrate the sacrifice of those who paid for it. But once liberty is enshrined in law, they will be free to do so. And when the Iraqis finally escape their incarceration, hope will spread throughout that enslaved region of the world, eventually making us all safer and more free.

    The key is in the lock of the prison door. Bold men risk everything to turn it.

    Mrs. Sheehan, everyone dies. But few experience the bittersweet glory of death with a purpose -- death that sets people free and produces ripples of liberty hundreds of years into the future.

    Casey Sheehan died that freedom might triumph over bondage, hope over despair, prosperity over misery. He died restoring justice and mercy. He lived and died to help to destroy the last stubborn vestiges of the Dark Ages.

    To paraphrase President Lincoln, the world will little note nor long remember what you and I say here. But it can never forget what Casey Sheehan did during his brief turn on earth. If we are wise, we will take increased devotion to that cause for which he gave the last full measure of devotion.

    Our brave warriors have blazed a trail. They have entrusted the completion of the task to those of us they left behind. Let's, you and I, resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain.

    Let's finish the work that they have thus far so nobly advanced.

    Sincerely,
    George W. Bush
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  20.    #580  
    barry, summarize and use links! who is going to read all that!

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