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  1.    #221  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Pull your head out of that hole dude. Nothing is more factual than that.

    When I google I see the original attempted lies and generalizations, but no proof. To say W was hanging out with his rich oil buddies is a wilda$s guess and opinion, not fact.
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    #222  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Maybe reading, in Bush Sr.'s OWN words, will point out it was NOT 'peace activists' making that decision (and do you see any of the below predictions which came true??):
    While we hoped that popular revolt or coup would topple Saddam, neither the U.S. nor the countries of the region wished to see the breakup of the Iraqi state. We were concerned about the long-term balance of power at the head of the Gulf. Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not changing objectives in midstream, engaging in "mission creep," and would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible. We had been unable to find Noriega in Panama, which we knew intimately. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under those circumstances, furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-cold war world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the U.N.'s mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the U.S. could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different--and perhaps barren--outcome."


    You're going to have to cite the Russian WMD story please. What was being hidden from the U.N.?? There's no WMD there. There's no fawking program. NOTHING! You do realize that Husseing lost the entire Northern territory after Gulf I right?


    Glad to hear it. Would you mind pointing out a situationof inhumanity happening on the globe rioght now we should address? Oh and try to make it one NOT from the Bush Neo-Cons please.
    My opinon is we still should have finished the job the first time. Yes Bush senior is a politician, he will spin the story as needed as all do. Yes there were anti-war movements then that wanted us out NOW. Here we are because we left to soon

    Here is a short version of Russian involvment

    While in Iraq I uncovered detailed information that Spetsnatz units shredded records and moved all WMD and specified advanced munitions out of Iraq to Syria and Lebanon," stated Shaw during an exclusive interview.

    "I received information from several sources naming the exact Russian units, what they took and where they took both WMD materials and conventional explosives. Moscow made a 2001 agreement with Saddam Hussein to clear up all Russian involvement in WMD systems in Iraq," stated Shaw.

    Shaw's assertions match the information provided by U.S. military forces that satellite surveillance showed extensive large-vehicle traffic crossing the Syrian border prior to Operation Iraqi Freedom.

    Moscow Paranoid About WMD

    Shaw's information also backs allegations by a wide variety of sources of Russia's direct involvement in Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program. One U.N. bioterrorism expert announced that Russia has been Iraq's "main supplier of the materials and know-how to weaponize anthrax, botulism and smallpox."

    Writing in the Wall Street Journal, Robert Goldberg cited former U.N. weapons inspector Richard Spertzel, who stated that Moscow supplied Baghdad with fermentation equipment to produce biotoxins.

    According to Spertzel, the Russians on the U.N. inspection team in Iraq were "paranoid" about his efforts to uncover smallpox production.

    Goldberg noted that no country has "done more to rebuild" Saddam's chemical and biological weapons programs or "been more aggressive in helping hide the truth" than Russia.

    It is a fact that Saddam Hussein rose to power backed by Russian weapons and Russian money. Saddam was in debt to Moscow for over $8 billion for the arms he purchased from Russia when he was captured by U.S. forces.

    The primary Iraqi chemical weapons were VX nerve gas and mustard gas, a blistering agent, both obtained from Russia.

    According to the book "Russian Military Power," published in 1982, "It is known that the Soviets maintain stocks of CW (chemical weapons) agents."

    The two primary Russian chemical weapons in the 1982 Soviet

    As I said, I have no complaints to your statement, where do you think we should start?
  3. #223  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    When I google I see the original attempted lies and generalizations, but no proof. To say W was hanging out with his rich oil buddies is a wilda$s guess and opinion, not fact.
    Ok, remove the rich part. He joined the Air National Guard to avoid Vietnam and still serve the required minimum.
  4.    #224  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Ok, remove the rich part. He joined the Air National Guard to avoid Vietnam and still serve the required minimum.
    A little more brave than you and I sitting behind a keyboard typing about a guy who served his country flying F-102's.
  5. #225  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Ok, remove the rich part. He joined the Air National Guard to avoid Vietnam and still serve the required minimum.
    FACT: he did not even serve out his required minimum (of hiding out)!!
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    #226  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Election politics aside. You are discrediting a man who voluntarily went into combat for this country. That's not kewl but apparently you have little REAL respect for those in the military. Just when it serves your political objectives.
    I have not disrespected Mr. Kerry's service in any way. I just pointed out the fact that his citations have apparently been edited. I have also seen/heard the reports from those who served with him. I have heard good and bad. I honor his service to our country, does not mean I can not question his citations.

    How do you justify discrediting service in the guard?

    As I said neither one has a record free of blemish do they? However they both served in the armed forces.
  7.    #227  
    From www.aerospaceweb.org...
    As Bush was completing his training and being certified as a qualified pilot, there was always the possibility that the ANG might be mobilized in order to send F-102 squadrons to Vietnam. However, the F-102 had originally been stationed in that theater to guard against the possibility of air attack from the North, a danger that never materialized since North Vietnamese pilots refused to stray south of the border and outside their own protective SAM barrier. This lack of a threat prompted the Air Force to gradually withdraw the F-102 from southeast Asia beginning in December 1969 and concluding in May 1971. The F-102 was instead returned to its primary role of providing air defense for the United States. This vital mission had been almost entirely transferred to the ANG by that time since the Air Force had become increasingly tasked with its overseas responsibilities in Europe and Asia.
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    #228  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    If you can do the right thing, stand up for the innocent against tyrants and murderers, and if do it intelligently with minimal cost in lives or treasure -- we should do it.

    Doing the humane thing also rebounds to us later in the gloabal indirect sense as well. Even moslems who were rightly angry that we had watched the savagery of Sarajevo and Bosnia, appreciated that we'd finally done something.

    I wished we done something in Rwanda as well. (Somalia was daddy's idea -- I alsways thought it was IDIOCY !!!)
    Your true colors show. Why is appropriate in some countries/situations but bad idea (idiocy) if a Republican is in office? Can't have it both ways
  9. #229  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    A little more brave than you and I sitting behind a keyboard typing about a guy who served his country flying F-102's.

    During that awful war you had choices --


    If you supported the war you could let yourself be drafted into the swamps and fetid jungles, or you could enlist.

    If you were a gungho supporter of the war you could also use your connections to get into the national gaurd, or apply for deferment after deferment like our hero **** cheney.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  10. #230  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    If you can do the right thing, stand up for the innocent against tyrants and murderers, and if do it intelligently with minimal cost in lives or treasure -- we should do it.

    Doing the humane thing also rebounds to us later in the gloabal indirect sense as well. Even moslems who were rightly angry that we had watched the savagery of Sarajevo and Bosnia, appreciated that we'd finally done something.

    I wished we done something in Rwanda as well. (Somalia was daddy's idea -- I alsways thought it was IDIOCY !!!)
    Why was Milosovic such a need, and Saddam wasn't? If we're speaking just on a murderous, tyrannical level?

    And I agree with Somalia, unfortunately, the Media for some reason kept feeding images of starving kids. I think President Bush felt it was the right thing to do, for a humanitarian relief effort. However, Super 61 and TF Ranger happened under President Clinton, against Gen. Powells advice.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  11. #231  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    During that awful war you had choices --


    If you supported the war you could let yourself be drafted in the swamps and fetid jungles, or you could enlist.

    If you were a gungho supporter of the war you could also use your connection to get into the national gaurd, or apply for deferment after deferment like our hero **** cheney.
    Or Bill Clinton?
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  12.    #232  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    FACT: he did not even serve out his required minimum (of hiding out)!!
    When you have an honorable discharge, you have completed your service.

    Just as Kerry had three purple hearts that allegedly were self-inflicted or minor boo-boo's - it was never proven fact. Therefore, for the record - both were honorable discharged. And apprarently the American public thought it was a wash and elect Bush President for the 2nd time.
  13. #233  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Your true colors show. Why is appropriate in some countries/situations but bad idea (idiocy) if a Republican is in office? Can't have it both ways
    It appears that way so far...
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  14. #234  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Why was Milosovic such a need, and Saddam wasn't? If we're speaking just on a murderous, tyrannical level?

    And I agree with Somalia, unfortunately, the Media for some reason kept feeding images of starving kids. I think President Bush felt it was the right thing to do, for a humanitarian relief effort. However, Super 61 and TF Ranger happened under President Clinton, against Gen. Powells advice.

    "unfortunately, the Media for some reason kept feeding images of starving kids, I think President Bush felt it was the right thing to do"

    hmmm. Yes the media played dreadful image after dreadful image -- but why would we commit our armed forces there -- for nation building -- except that he was doing it as a "GIFT" to Clinton, who had humiliated him ???

    Milosovic was a bad guy -- and a phoney coward -- who we could take out painlessly. Bosnia was viable and fighting for its life -- all we did was lend them a little help...
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  15.    #235  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Or Bill Clinton?
    NO. That doesn't fit into his argument!
  16. #236  
    Bill Clinton opposed the war (like Kerry).

    The honorable options for the war's opponents were to refuse the draft (and risk jail); find some way to get a medical 4F to avoid service (discover that you have the hots for **** nixon); go to Canada, or get academic deferments.

    CLinton used academic deferments -- but was conflicted by his having allowed poorer less advantaged to have to serve and die in his place.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  17. #237  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    the only challenged fact was how much influence did daddy's friends have in getting him into the guard despite a bad academic record, and ahead of many other applicants who were also looking for a place to hide out from being shot at
    Is GPA the only or the main qualification when reviewing candidates, or does service, personality, initial NG testing, ect...take a role? Is it unusual to use contacts to get what you want? I have to admit that I have used personal contacts to get hired in jobs that I would have had little chance of getting if I was applying on my own off the street.

    There is no doubt that many did want to join the NG to play the lottery if they would have to go or not. I have never been faced with the strong possibility of being drafted, have you? I do not know how I would react. But there are those who chose the NG with honorable intentions. We do not, and you do not know what was Bush intentions. But for the pure fact that so many guards were called up to serve in Nam, that I personally feel that if Bush was truely trying to run from the Draft (which Clinton did when he went to Canada), he would have have better odds NOT joining the NG.

    Having been in the NG, I would never demean any man's or women's intentions from serving. Just as I would not demean Kerry's service, no matter how horrible his actions were once he got home.

    Your continual comments I find offensive and demeaning to all who serve in the armed forces just for the statement of political gain over one man.

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Why don't you just stop with voices of the REPUBLICAN Conservative Green Beret that he pulled from the water under fire -- or the members of his crew !!
    I thought that was what the Swift Veterans group was....collective testimony concerning Kerry's claims. Many of the accounts had multiple witnesses and documenation to support it. Their claims then would need to be reviewed and balanced against Kerry's claims. Even if one is not able to accept these accounts they do have more than enough backing to call Kerry's claims into question at the very least. They cannot be simply disregarded because they opposed the claims of Kerry. That would be imposing self ignorance. I always loved the quote for Dilbert years ago: "Ignorance may be bliss, but self imposed ignorance is stupid".

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    the heads of conservative lovers of junior would explode if they were truly forced to accept that this is the truth:

    that the great generalissomo was a COWARD and a PHONEY !!!
    Man you have an unbridaled pure, deep to the core, all consuming, wearing not only on your sleeve but also on your chest and forhead hatred towards ANYTHING that has to do with Bush. To the point of only seeing the negative stories and never able to even recognize a single good that has to do with Bush.

    I noticed again you bring up this point.....YET AGAIN....here is one of my answers to another time you brought this up:

    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    I do apologize, I meant to put a smiley there as I was sarcastically referencing the unanswered and I believe yet to be proven allegations of how he got the 3 Purple hearts.

    But to answer your question:

    Bush 0 (his NG unit was not deployed), Reagan How many wars between 1925-1938 could have fought in to earn a Purple Heart?, Kerry 3 ( including the allegations referenced above, a life threatening rose thorn scratch wound that was bandaged by a medic 3 days later with a single bandaid, and rice kernels in his **** from his own granade with no enemies around while he claimed it was enemy metal shrapenel under entense enemy fire in his report).

    I did notice that since you included way back to Reagan, you failed to mention Clinton's little vacation to Canada to dodge the draft completely.


    I acknowledged this fact several posts back and honor anyone who has served in our Military.



    By some reports, while others claim he acted just the opposite. I don't think we will every know for sure.

    I did not. I was in the National Guard. Do you really think that Bush would not have gone if his unit was called up? I am sorry, but this argument was used extensively last year during the election. I do take offense to those who use this argument and I do find it a slam to those that serve today in the NG and in ALL times during war for those who served the NG. What ever the motivation, every NG member serves their country, especially during times of war, which does include the Vietnam war.

    But here are some interesting insights to Kerry's willingness to enlist:

    how 'war hero' Kerry tried to put off Vietnam military duty
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...07/wkerr07.xml


    In my opinion this does not demean the fact that he did enlist, that he did serve. But just simply that motivations may play a part in actions we take, and can guide our lives in paths we never dreamed of.

    The fact is no matter what any of their motivations where....they both served our country. And to say that Kerry does not deserve recognition for his medals (that he did not throw away as he claimed to have done with pictures and possibly video to prove it) or to say that serving in the NG is not serving our country is a slam to all who serve.
    Again, I am in no way claiming any dishonor to Kerry's service in Vietnam (though I question his actions once he returned home). I would question Clinton's conveniently timed vacation to Canada. Just as with Kerry, I would not discredit Bush service in the NG during a time of war.
  18. #238  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    CLinton used academic deferments -- but was conflicted by his having allowed poorer less advantaged to have to serve and die in his place.
    And I'm sure he told you this personally back in '69 too.

    Saying that 25 years later is nothing more than a well crafted excuse, much like the ones you're accusing Bush and Cheney of.

    But then there is no arguing with hard core libs, they have an excuse for everything. Just don't use the same arguments to defend your side, because then they're just crap.
    I'm back!
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    #239  
    LOOK AT THIS

    The family of American soldier Casey Sheehan, who was killed in Iraq on April 4, 2004, has broken its silence and spoken out against his mother Cindy Sheehan's anti-war vigil against George Bush held outside the president's Crawford, Texas ranch.

    The following email was received by the DRUDGE REPORT from Cherie Quarterolo, Casey's aunt and godmother:

    Our family has been so distressed by the recent activities of Cindy we are breaking our silence and we have collectively written a statement for release. Feel free to distribute it as you wish. Thanks Cherie

    In response to questions regarding the Cindy Sheehan/Crawford Texas issue: Sheehan Family Statement:

    The Sheehan Family lost our beloved Casey in the Iraq War and we have been silently, respectfully grieving. We do not agree with the political motivations and publicity tactics of Cindy Sheehan. She now appears to be promoting her own personal agenda and notoriety at the the expense of her son's good name and reputation. The rest of the Sheehan Family supports the troops, our country, and our President, silently, with prayer and respect.

    Sincerely,

    Casey Sheehan's grandparents, aunts, uncles and numerous cousins.


    nough said
  20. #240  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    FACT: he did not even serve out his required minimum (of hiding out)!!
    And neither did Kerry! He only served like 5 months of his year tour!

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