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  1. #121  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Dave Hart, FSU AD chimed in. Long, not gonna paste it, but here is the link.

    FSU will not back down.
    I hope they don't back done. I love a good legal fight.
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  2. #122  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I hope they don't back done. I love a good legal fight.
    Considering the Florida Legislature is considering a law to protect the mascots of it's state universities, I'd say the NCAA is in for more than they bargained for. From what I've heard, FSU is considering a three-pronged attack. They will follow the NCAA appeals process, they will push for state Legislature to invalidate the ruling, and they will pursue a suit in federal court arguing the Constitutionality of the ruling.
    I'm back!
  3. #123  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    Considering the Florida Legislature is considering a law to protect the mascots of it's state universities, I'd say the NCAA is in for more than they bargained for. From what I've heard, FSU is considering a three-pronged attack. They will follow the NCAA appeals process, they will push for state Legislature to invalidate the ruling, and they will pursue a suit in federal court arguing the Constitutionality of the ruling.
    Well if the NCAA argues the Title IX issue, it probably won't matter too much what the legistlature does. I am not sure how much power the NCAA has as a governing body over the colleges...that might be a factor too (especially if they have some by-law that they are relying on).
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  4. #124  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Well if the NCAA argues the Title IX issue, it probably won't matter too much what the legistlature does. I am not sure how much power the NCAA has as a governing body over the colleges...that might be a factor too (especially if they have some by-law that they are relying on).
    How does Title IX apply here?
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  5. #125  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Do they grow beets in Utah?? Out by Brush and Ft Morgan they have HUGE beet farms.
    Long ago, Brigham Young tried to start a major sugar-beet industry in Utah, and even sent people to England to learn the secrets of the trade there. (The idea was to get sugar from the beets as an alternative to cane sugar.) However, the industry was extremely cutthroat, and the English sugar-beet farmers jealously guarded their sugar beet-making secrets. They even sold misinformation to keep the competition away. As a result, even after many years of struggle, the sugar-beet industry in Utah was never very successful.
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  6. #126  
    That's interesting cause Western Sugar has places all across Colorado and there are so many beet farms. Wonder why they never went to Utah?

    Well behaved women rarely make history
  7. #127  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    How does Title IX apply here?
    My bad...sorry it was Title VII.
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  8. #128  
    St. John's University (NYC) lost this fight a long time ago -- Basketball team went from the "RedMen" to the "Red Strom" A whole lot of Alumni are still pissed. I was unlucky enough to be a student At the time

    It realy is terrible. Students still chant Redmen at the games though
    da Gimp

    Please note: My spelling sucks and I'm to lazy to check it.
  9. #129  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    My bad...sorry it was Title VII.
    I think the NCAA would have a hard time proving that using "Seminole" as a mascot is discriminatory in any way.
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  10. #130  
    Quote Originally Posted by B-model
    St. John's University (NYC) lost this fight a long time ago -- Basketball team went from the "RedMen" to the "Red Strom" A whole lot of Alumni are still pissed. I was unlucky enough to be a student At the time

    It realy is terrible. Students still chant Redmen at the games though
    Seminoles, Utes, and Illini are a long way from Redmen, Redskins, or Braves though.
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  11. #131  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    I think the NCAA would have a hard time proving that using "Seminole" as a mascot is discriminatory in any way.
    You may be right because of the way you framed the issue (and I admit...its a tough case to sell ) but the NCAA has, within my limited understanding, broad reaching power to regulate most college athletics.

    However, if I broaden the issue by saying...

    "Whether the use of a Native American mascot constitutes unfavorable or unfair treatment of a person or class of persons in comparison to others when it portrays a symbol of an indian screaming, made up in war paint, racing on a horse at a college game." Then I could argue that it casts the Native American group in a unfavorable light that a reasonable person would deem as hostile or abusive because the depiction below is not representative of all native americans (or Seminoles).


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  12. #132  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    You may be right because of the way you framed the issue (and I admit...its a tough case to sell ) but the NCAA has, within my limited understanding, broad reaching power to regulate most college athletics.

    However, if I broaden the issue by saying...

    "Whether the use of a Native American mascot constitutes unfavorable or unfair treatment of a person or class of persons in comparison to others when it portrays a symbol of an indian screaming, made up in war paint, racing on a horse at a college game." Then I could argue that it casts the Native American group in a unfavorable light that a reasonable person would deem as hostile or abusive because the depiction below is not representative of all native americans (or Seminoles).


    I do have a problem with the NCAA classifying this as "hostile and abusive". Again, I see this as a major stretch. Redmen or Redskins can be classified as "hostile and abusive" since these are derogatory words associated with Native Americans. Honoring a tribe by using their proper name, while respecting their traditions and cultures, is hardly "hostile and abusive" no matter who is complaining. Is it possibly offensive? Maybe. Is it "hostile and abusive"? No.

    And from the link you provided:

    "Unfair treatment is not necessarily unlawful discrimination"

    So if the NCAA uses this as part of their argument, they had better prove there is unlawful discrimination involved, and I don't see how that will be possible.
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  13. #133  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    I do have a problem with the NCAA classifying this as "hostile and abusive". Again, I see this as a major stretch.
    Your viewpoint may or may not be right. However, the courts will probably give the benefit of the doubt to the NCAA as the administrative authority (IMO). If that is true, then in order for FSU to win, they have to show a higher burden of proof that the NCAA overstepped its bounds (and I think an argument could be made that they did.)
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    Redmen or Redskins can be classified as "hostile and abusive" since these are derogatory words associated with Native Americans. Honoring a tribe by using their proper name, while respecting their traditions and cultures, is hardly "hostile and abusive" no matter who is complaining.
    This is your opinion and that is fine (and even reasonable).
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    Is it possibly offensive? Maybe. Is it "hostile and abusive"? No.
    I think it will come down to how the NCAA attorneys (and FSU attorneys) 'frame' the facts...
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    And from the link you provided:
    "Unfair treatment is not necessarily unlawful discrimination"

    So if the NCAA uses this as part of their argument, they had better prove there is unlawful discrimination involved, and I don't see how that will be possible.
    Well don't quote me...I am just making an argument one way. If FSU does sue (not sure if they have actually filed) one problem is the fact that the NCAA has a lot of power to determine what the subjective meaning of hostile and abusive is. I was just making one possible argument. I could just as easily make an argument the other way but then we would all agree and I couldnt have that.

    Remember on the quote that you posted...that doesnt mean that unfair treatment isn't unlawful discrimination only that it might be. The words are key. The attorney that uses the words the best and makes the best legal argument is usually the winner.
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  14. #134  
    Isn't the association of a people with sport by its very nature discriminatory? Doesn't it prejudge the mascot's classification to be better suited to competition? With few exceptions, mascots are designed to be ruthless, fearless and fearsome. Doesn't the very act of describing your sports teams as <insert mascot name here> automatically associate <insert mascot name here>s with the aforementioned traits?

    What if Florida State's mascot were a "Blackman," "Lesbian," "Asian," "Retarded Kid"?

    There is nothing wrong with being black, lesbian, asian or mentally disabled; however when you put their images on your sports teams, you are saying something...

    Just some thoughts.
  15.    #135  
    Sad we have to over complicate something so stupid as a result of PC.
  16. #136  
    Quote Originally Posted by KRamsauer
    There is nothing wrong with being black, lesbian, asian or mentally disabled; however when you put their images on your sports teams, you are saying something...
    Good point...I think it comes down to "What are we saying?" and "How are we saying it?" I think there is a legitimate argument on both sides.
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  17. #137  
    Isn't the reality of the situation that if the NCAA which is a private and member controlled group be allowed to determine the behavior of its members if they want to be included. I am not saying I agree with them but if a school wanted to name their tean the Jihadists shouldn't the NCAA be able to ban that if it is causing damage to their group?
  18. #138  
    gharrod: I dont really know. The NCAA does have a lot of power and under its own by-laws/statutes, it probably has a lot of authority over its members.
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  19. #139  
    Quote Originally Posted by KRamsauer
    Isn't the association of a people with sport by its very nature discriminatory? Doesn't it prejudge the mascot's classification to be better suited to competition? With few exceptions, mascots are designed to be ruthless, fearless and fearsome. Doesn't the very act of describing your sports teams as <insert mascot name here> automatically associate <insert mascot name here>s with the aforementioned traits?

    What if Florida State's mascot were a "Blackman," "Lesbian," "Asian," "Retarded Kid"?

    There is nothing wrong with being black, lesbian, asian or mentally disabled; however when you put their images on your sports teams, you are saying something...

    Just some thoughts.
    I am going in the opposite direction with the name of my latest fantasy football team. I am going to name them the Wall St. Caucasian Executives. Their logo - and mascot - is going to be the snooty top hat guy from the Monopoly game. I just want to make sure that no fellow caucasians will be offended though.
    ROOTING for WebOS makes me more sympathetic to Cubs fans.
  20.    #140  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob-C
    I am going in the opposite direction with the name of my latest fantasy football team. I am going to name them the Wall St. Caucasian Executives. Their logo - and mascot - is going to be the snooty top hat guy from the Monopoly game. I just want to make sure that no fellow caucasians will be offended though.
    Like the name. Rich white people suck! They should apologize or something.

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