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  1. KAM1138
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    #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by Brain_ReCall View Post
    And, as others have mentioned, evolution does not describe the origin of life, nor does it attempt to. People who think that evolution is out to replace your deity/God(s) are incredibly mistaken, and are likely pushing an agenda. What these people should be looking at is Abiogenesis.

    If you argue to push ID into the classrooms, to be at an even level of evolution, then I demand that the Flying Spaghetti Monster be given equal time as well. To only push ID and evolution would greatly limit our young students' exposure to alternative theories.
    Actually, many people DO represent evolution as explaining the origin of life, and many are pushing an agenda (mostly people who don't know the first thing about science at all). That's not a problem for me, because I am not offended by the views of others, but to pretend there isn't an agenda when there often is (like Religions have an agenda) is misleading. YOU may not have an agenda, but you aren't representative of everyone of course.

    I'm not an ID proponent, but the flying spaghetti monster stuff is intentionally hostile, and scornful, not a serious attempt to discuss these issues. In fact, this sort of insincere pettiness tells a lot about the mindset of the people who choose this sort of grade-school level mockery.

    It shows a great disrespect for what in many cases is a sincere belief (if not a factually based one), and the right to have that sincere belief (even if to you it is ridiculous).

    The desire to heap scorn on others is very telling.

    What others have said: Studying Evolution is not (inherently) atheistic is true. However, it seems to me that Atheists actually do attempt to use evolution (and various other things) to push their beliefs. Some atheists do in fact have an agenda to push--atheism, for one reason or another. Some atheist do not have an agenda to push, and others do.

    It seems to me that the Evolution vs Creation issue is more often than not presented as fact vs fiction, and Atheism vs Religion, and those are not parallels. As others have pointed out, Religions can (and do) embrace evolution, and other science as well. However, these finer points are often lost--and I suspect mostly due to people who really don't know much about science or religion.

    KAM
    Last edited by KAM1138; 11/10/2009 at 03:39 PM. Reason: Additional Point
  2. KAM1138
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    #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    The biggest problem about teaching creationism is that, in America, it is completely Christian. Please don't pretend that, if creationism is taught, the teachers are going to discuss creation from all different religions.

    You cannot teach Christianity in public schools as if it were fact. Teach it in religion classes as one of the world's religions, but to teach it as fact or even possible fact would be to use the taxes of everyone to support a religion.

    For someone so interested in America as you see it laid out in the Constitution, even you, KAM, must agree that teaching Christianity is a no-no.
    Teaching Christianity certainly isn't the function of public schools. However, learning ABOUT Christianity (and other religions) is perfectly acceptable. There is no need for a teacher to make any judgment in regards to fact.

    You are however, completely incorrect regarding Creationism. Judaism, Christianity and Islam all share the same Creation Story.

    I can't say what may happen, but when in my 7th Grade Social studies class we studied Religion, we focused mostly on non-Christian Religions, likely because most of us were Christians.

    KAM
  3. #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Teaching Christianity certainly isn't the function of public schools. However, learning ABOUT Christianity (and other religions) is perfectly acceptable. There is no need for a teacher to make any judgment in regards to fact.

    You are however, completely incorrect regarding Creationism. Judaism, Christianity and Islam all share the same Creation Story.

    I can't say what may happen, but when in my 7th Grade Social studies class we studied Religion, we focused mostly on non-Christian Religions, likely because most of us were Christians.

    KAM
    I think its not acceptable to learn about RELIGION itself on schools but their history.

    About creationism and religion itself, it should be only tought in churches and other cult environments. School should not teach nothing that is based on faith. That is personal and private, not standard and scientific knowledge.
  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    In fact, I went to a high school run by highly-educated Catholic priests.
    You were lucky it was not in Ireland!
  5. KAM1138
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    #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by glorifiedg View Post
    I think its not acceptable to learn about RELIGION itself on schools but their history.
    That's what I'm referring to--Religion as a cultural study, not as a means of engaging in religious practice.

    KAM
  6. #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    You are however, completely incorrect regarding Creationism. Judaism, Christianity and Islam all share the same Creation Story.
    What about the Hindus?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  7. groovy's Avatar
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    #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    What about the Hindus?
    Which ones??
  8. #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Which ones??
    The ones that don't follow the Judeo-Christian Creation mythos?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  9. groovy's Avatar
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    #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    The ones that don't follow the Judeo-Christian Creation mythos?
    Seriously though, you raise a good point, and one that I would think shows the inherent difficulty in teaching creationism in schools. Leaving aside that federal funding prohibits teaching sectarian views in public school, if it did happen we'd have to come to some sort of agreement of which account will be taught. But this extends to many areas outside of Creationism as well and, in my opinion, doesn't so much show the flaw in teaching Creationism as it shows the flaw in a de facto federally run educational system.
  10. #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Seriously though, you raise a good point, and one that I would think shows the inherent difficulty in teaching creationism in schools. Leaving aside that federal funding prohibits teaching sectarian views in public school, if it did happen we'd have to come to some sort of agreement of which account will be taught. But this extends to many areas outside of Creationism as well and, in my opinion, doesn't so much show the flaw in teaching Creationism as it shows the flaw in a de facto federally run educational system.
    But there are more and more students from diverse background, and thus more and more that don't have Judeo-Christian religious beliefs. What is the flaw in the educational system, and why is it not an inherent flaw in teaching specific religious accounts in school?

    I guess I don't understand the point you're making - one can teach the impact of religions in society without getting into tremendous detail about specific practices.
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  11. groovy's Avatar
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    #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    But there are more and more students from diverse background, and thus more and more that don't have Judeo-Christian religious beliefs. What is the flaw in the educational system, and why is it not an inherent flaw in teaching specific religious accounts in school?

    I guess I don't understand the point you're making - one can teach the impact of religions in society without getting into tremendous detail about specific practices.
    My point is that parents in many communities are forced to send their children to schools that teach views contradictory to their own. In other words, because of federal funding, public schools can't actually teach the views and values of the local community when they are in opposition to federal guidelines.
  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    My point is that parents in many communities are forced to send their children to schools that teach views contradictory to their own. In other words, because of federal funding, public schools can't actually teach the views and values of the local community when they are in opposition to federal guidelines.
    Groovy, and what is the problem?

    Schools exist to teach verifiable truth and proofable (I dont know this word exists ) knowledge. It doesn't matter whats is the parents point of view. That is no right of ignorance.

    The parents point of view is to be taught by parents not by school, I think.
  13. #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    My point is that parents in many communities are forced to send their children to schools that teach views contradictory to their own.
    What sorts of views? Are they prevented from starting/attending a private school or home schooling?
    In other words, because of federal funding, public schools can't actually teach the views and values of the local community when they are in opposition to federal guidelines.
    What percentage of funding at most local schools is provided by the federal government?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  14. KAM1138
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    #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    What about the Hindus?
    The claim was that Creationism was exclusively about Christianity. My post pointed out that was a false statement. I didn't attempt to, or claim to state that it was however all encompassing.

    Perhaps I should restate that I see no NEED or requirement to study world Religions in school, merely that there is no need for it to be a taboo subject.

    KAM
  15. KAM1138
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    #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    What sorts of views? Are they prevented from starting/attending a private school or home schooling?

    What percentage of funding at most local schools is provided by the federal government?
    I'm not sure of Groovy's point, but in fact, money is collected from taxpayers in a community and used to pay for public schools. In other words--parents are not able to use their own money to pay for education of their choice. Now, some places I understand have voucher systems that allow for school choice, but I don't believe hat is universal.

    I'm told (and I'm sure Bujin will inform us, because he's the expert) that Federal funding is a relatively small percentage. Most schools can't ignore that money, but it remains a minor portion of overall funding.

    KAM
  16. #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by glorifiedg View Post
    Schools exist to teach verifiable truth and proofable (I dont know this word exists ) knowledge.
    'Provable' would be the English word (or 'proven').
    It doesn't matter whats is the parents point of view. That is no right of ignorance.
    There is certainly the right to ignorance in the US.
    The parents point of view is to be taught by parents not by school, I think.
    Yes. The job of the school system is supposed to be to teach basic subjects like "reading, writing, and (a)rithmetic". Evolution is a _scientific_ theory which has tons of evidence supporting it. Anyone who disputes it, and claims intelligent design deserves to be held in the same regard, obviously wasn't paying enough attention in science classes as to what constitutes a scientific theory as opposed to a general definition of 'theory'. They also don't really understand what evolution and natural selection actually deal with. Evolution does not explain the origins of life. It does not mean that a cat can become a dog (although they may have had a common ancestor at one point). I'm constantly amazed that people who can easily understand selective breeding to acquire different traits have such a hard time believing that natural circumstances and environmental factors may also select certain traits to survive.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  17. #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    The claim was that Creationism was exclusively about Christianity. My post pointed out that was a false statement. I didn't attempt to, or claim to state that it was however all encompassing.
    It was a statement that if it is taught in American schools, it is likely done from a purely Christian perspective, not that Creation is exclusively Christian. That is not a false statement. While the roots of Christianity and Islam do come from Judaism, teaching Creationism from the perspective of the Bible does not necessarily encompass the Judaic and Islamic views. And it completely ignores any other Creation mythos.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  18. #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    I'm not sure of Groovy's point, but in fact, money is collected from taxpayers in a community and used to pay for public schools.
    How it is collected and where seems to be the bone of contention.
    In other words--parents are not able to use their own money to pay for education of their choice. Now, some places I understand have voucher systems that allow for school choice, but I don't believe hat is universal.
    I'm really not even talking about vouchers. I can't speak for other states, but here in America's Banana Republic, the state provides a 'minimum foundation' of funds to each school district. Each district can also choose additional fundings methods which are approved by the voters in that district (sales taxes, property millages, etc.). There are general educational policies and guidelines which the state sets in return for the block grants, but the majority of local curricula are set at the district level.
    I'm told (and I'm sure Bujin will inform us, because he's the expert) that Federal funding is a relatively small percentage. Most schools can't ignore that money, but it remains a minor portion of overall funding.
    I already have my own expert in the field to consult.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  19. KAM1138
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    #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    It was a statement that if it is taught in American schools, it is likely done from a purely Christian perspective, not that Creation is exclusively Christian. That is not a false statement. While the roots of Christianity and Islam do come from Judaism, teaching Creationism from the perspective of the Bible does not necessarily encompass the Judaic and Islamic views. And it completely ignores any other Creation mythos.
    No, Toby, that is not what Zeglo said. He said:
    The biggest problem about teaching creationism is that, in America, it is completely Christian. Please don't pretend that, if creationism is taught, the teachers are going to discuss creation from all different religions.

    Factually, if one teaches Christianity's version of Creation, they are also teaching Judaism's and Islams as well. Zeglo's claim is false, it CANNOT be completely Christian.

    Again--I didn't make any claims regarding other non Judaism/Christianity/Islamic religions, so I can't defend something I didn't say. The last claim of Zeglo's that teachers won't teach ALL creation stories. Obviously not--there are many, and it is unlikely there would be time to encompass "all" of most any subject.

    As I stated, my personal experience (which I know, some people like to selectively exclude) is that when in public school, we studied religions, we focused on ones that were not common to the students. To my recollection there was one Jewish girl, and the rest were Christian or non-religious. We didn't study ALL Religions, we studied a few major Religions. We didn't focus specifically on Creation stories however.

    KAM
  20. KAM1138
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    #120  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    How it is collected and where seems to be the bone of contention.

    I'm really not even talking about vouchers. I can't speak for other states, but here in America's Banana Republic, the state provides a 'minimum foundation' of funds to each school district. Each district can also choose additional fundings methods which are approved by the voters in that district (sales taxes, property millages, etc.). There are general educational policies and guidelines which the state sets in return for the block grants, but the majority of local curricula are set at the district level.

    I already have my own expert in the field to consult.
    To my knowledge the Local school board has a great deal of influence.

    KAM
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