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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    I would say that ID/Creationism and evolutionary sciences are as mutually exclusive as the Flat Earth Theory and your GPS Navigation system!
    Which is to say that they're not?

    You could have a GPS system on a flat surface.
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  2. #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    ID/Creationism are NOT scientific theories. A scientific theory is a hypothesis wich has been proven to be correct in a very high number of scientific experiments. There is no way you can compare ID and evolution because there are tons of evidence in favour of evolution, thousands and thousands of articles in peer-reviewed scientific journals detailing the methods and results of those experiments, but zero credible scientific evidence in favour of ID/Creationism.

    Evolution says life developed due to random mutations in the DNA, and due to selection (non-random selection) for mutations which lead to more offspring ("greater fitness").

    ID says there is an "intelligent designer" involved in mutation and/or selection. There is no evidence whatsoever for this designer, and no need for one in the framework of evolution.

    However, evolution and religion are NOT mutally exclusive. You can always say that a god or a group of gods set the big bang or evolution in motion, even though there is no trace for that. As long as there is no evidence for a designer/creator, ID and creationism is not a scientific topic, but a purely religious one - and as such it has no place in science classes, just as kabbalah is not tought in math classes.
    You're right, "scientific theories" was probably a poor choice of words. How about just "theories"? I was referring to a situation where God put the Big Bang into motion, just like Evolution could be a part of Intelligent Design.

    This is the argument I use when people say that dinosaurs are proof that the Bible is wrong. I counter with "Well, why are dinosaurs and the Bible mutually exclusive?" I don't see how they have to be.
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  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    Which is to say that they're not?

    You could have a GPS system on a flat surface.
    well how would a geosynchronous satellite stay up in orbit above a flat earth?

    oh I forgot ....NASA has been faking all those satellite launches for decades! duhh!
    Palm m505 -> Treo600 (GSM ATT) -> Treo650 (Cingular) -> BB8700g -> BB Pearl
    "The point of living and of being an optimist, is to be foolish enough to believe the best is yet to come."
  4.    #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    This is the argument I use when people say that dinosaurs are proof that the Bible is wrong. I counter with "Well, why are dinosaurs and the Bible mutually exclusive?" I don't see how they have to be.
    Just for argument's sake...

    What if God created a world with dinosaur bones pre-installed and pre-aged? I wouldn't think it out of his power to add a couple of half-lives to carbon in the soil during the initial installation.

    Y'know, you'd think that a week after God created everything, you could cut down a tree and count the 100 rings of seven day old tree. Just speculatin'...
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    Just for argument's sake...

    What if God created a world with dinosaur bones pre-installed and pre-aged? I wouldn't think it out of his power to add a couple of half-lives to carbon in the soil during the initial installation.

    Y'know, you'd think that a week after God created everything, you could cut down a tree and count the 100 rings of seven day old tree. Just speculatin'...
    taking the same argument to an absurd extreme (but still logical and irrefutable) ....

    What if the entire universe (including all of us) was just created just 5 minutes ago - with all our history, memories, etc. already pre-installed? After all, psychologists are able to implant false memories - God could easily create or pre-install memories so that we have the sensation of continuity.

    Anyway to disprove this?
    Palm m505 -> Treo600 (GSM ATT) -> Treo650 (Cingular) -> BB8700g -> BB Pearl
    "The point of living and of being an optimist, is to be foolish enough to believe the best is yet to come."
  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by Perry Holden
    BTW, why can't we just say God created evolution?

    Cheers, Perry.
    That's exactly how I believe it. The Catholic Church does not explain how man became to be (whether through evolution or through ID), but the church does state that a man's soul has NOT evolved. When the bible says that man was created in God's image, this is what the church is referring to....that the soul was created in God's image.

    So I believe in evolution and I'm a Catholic....and as for teaching ID in school. I don't see how it's possible without bringing in the church. Which I believe is a bad idea (i.e. they should not be teaching ID in school).
  7.    #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    taking the same argument to an absurd extreme (but still logical and irrefutable) ....

    What if the entire universe (including all of us) was just created just 5 minutes ago - with all our history, memories, etc. already pre-installed? After all, psychologists are able to implant false memories - God could easily create or pre-install memories so that we have the sensation of continuity.

    Anyway to disprove this?
    Love it! No, there is no way to disprove this. Everything could be a lie. We could all be part of The Matrix. (1st one was cool, others.... )

    Just helps to illustrate my earlier point that faith can neither be proven nor disproven. Heart and Brain are necessarily separate. Believers don't need proof (or disproof) and disbelievers won't buy it. It's not important.
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Hoooah! No love for those fly-boys here either.

    Although I did spend about six weeks outside of Eglin AFB once.
    While I was in AIT in Ft "Lost in the Woods, Misery", we had a combined class with Navy and Airforce (I was Army). I remember one day after heavy rains, the airforce guy started complaining that HIS CABLE WENT OUT! I about flipped out. We were not allowed to have any books (except the bible) and a visitor to our base in AIT had CABLE TV?! Yeah, I was jealous!
  9. #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    Just helps to illustrate my earlier point that faith can neither be proven nor disproven. Heart and Brain are necessarily separate. Believers don't need proof (or disproof) and disbelievers won't buy it. It's not important.
    That's kinda obvious (or it should be). Faith by definition (or at least my defination because I'm too lazy to look it up) is the belief of something without proof.
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    Love it! No, there is no way to disprove this. Everything could be a lie. We could all be part of The Matrix. (1st one was cool, others.... ).
    I agree ...first one was cool ...others were blah.


    BTW, have you ever played Sim City? Makes you feel like God!

    One interesting feature (I have version 4) ....if build your city/region up to a particular point (and save it) and then let it run by itself for a while (say for 50 years) then reset the clock back and re-run under exact same conditions - you get wildly different outcomes.
    Palm m505 -> Treo600 (GSM ATT) -> Treo650 (Cingular) -> BB8700g -> BB Pearl
    "The point of living and of being an optimist, is to be foolish enough to believe the best is yet to come."
  11.    #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    I agree ...first one was cool ...others were blah.


    BTW, have you ever played Sim City? Makes you feel like God!

    One interesting feature (I have version 4) ....if build your city/region up to a particular point (and save it) and then let it run by itself for a while (say for 50 years) then reset the clock back and re-run under exact same conditions - you get wildly different outcomes.
    For 2 and 3, I could never get over the idea that the actors kept thinking to themselves, "Dude, I am soooo in The Matrix. Check out my outfit!"

    Played Sim City once but kept losing everything to forces of nature. Made me lose interest.

    My girls like playing with the Amusement Park Tycoon (or whatever the name was). They really liked setting up the rides and then using the camera to "ride" them. I couldn't watch the spinning ones because it made me sick. We stopped playing the game because it was too much like work. Had to keep customers happy, equipment maintained, books balanced...
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    For 2 and 3, I could never get over the idea that the actors kept thinking to themselves, "Dude, I am soooo in The Matrix. Check out my outfit!"
    exactly!!

    Played Sim City once but kept losing everything to forces of nature. Made me lose interest.
    you have the option to turn off the forces of nature (or was that only in later versions?)
    Palm m505 -> Treo600 (GSM ATT) -> Treo650 (Cingular) -> BB8700g -> BB Pearl
    "The point of living and of being an optimist, is to be foolish enough to believe the best is yet to come."
  13. #93  
    Something was mentioned in another thread, but i thought my thoughts would better fit here.

    Isn't Evolution and Atheism taught in schools?
    If Evolution and Atheism kills the Idea of a Creator, isn't that teaching a belief?
    (A belief to not believe in an intelligent creator)
    Just call me Berd.
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    Something was mentioned in another thread, but i thought my thoughts would better fit here.

    Isn't Evolution and Atheism taught in schools?
    If Evolution and Atheism kills the Idea of a Creator, isn't that teaching a belief?
    (A belief to not believe in an intelligent creator)
    Evolution is completely unrelated to the idea of a creator. It only conflicts with a literal translation of the Bible in terms of time (the whole 6 days mythos). Atheism is not taught in any science class I was ever in. Intelligent design holds no place in a science curriculum. I'd pull out the George Will quote on why, but I'm sure I've posted it several times already.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  15. #95  
    I agree.

    Religion has no place in schools. - Because really, what Religion would they teach?

    I guess I was asking; why teach evolution?
    Yeah, I know it's part of certain Science Classes.

    I guess Atheism (No Creator) becomes a byproduct of the type of Evolution Theory that is taught in Schools.

    So I guess I was saying that evolution is kind of teaching 'No God.'
    Just call me Berd.
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    Something was mentioned in another thread, but i thought my thoughts would better fit here.

    Isn't Evolution and Atheism taught in schools?
    If Evolution and Atheism kills the Idea of a Creator, isn't that teaching a belief?
    (A belief to not believe in an intelligent creator)
    To me and maybe not to others, evolution and atheism are two different things. Things do evolve. We have theories and we have facts. At one time we had dinosaurs on the earth. Teaching scientific theory to me, doesn't mean you are teaching atheism.
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  17. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    I guess Atheism (No Creator) becomes a byproduct of the type of Evolution Theory that is taught in Schools.

    So I guess I was saying that evolution is kind of teaching 'No God.'
    Evolution does not mean no deity(s). Many people that adhere to evolution believe an all powerful being set the evolutionary clockwork in motion.
  18. #98  
    Thanks guys.

    It seems that Evolution has Evolved.
    Just call me Berd.
  19. #99  
    Well, normally I avoid general forums like the plague, but I guess I'll step in for a bit.

    First off, evolution happens. If you think it doesn't, then stop getting your yearly flu shot.

    What we don't fully understand is the process of evolution. Natural selection and random mutations are two processes that lead to evolution, but are not the only ones. In many ways, the processes of evolution have much more in common with statistics than science.

    And, as others have mentioned, evolution does not describe the origin of life, nor does it attempt to. People who think that evolution is out to replace your deity/God(s) are incredibly mistaken, and are likely pushing an agenda. What these people should be looking at is Abiogenesis.

    If you argue to push ID into the classrooms, to be at an even level of evolution, then I demand that the Flying Spaghetti Monster be given equal time as well. To only push ID and evolution would greatly limit our young students' exposure to alternative theories.
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  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    We have theories and we have facts.
    Thanks for that.

    I think then the Facts are in the evolution of variances within species.

    The Theories are the leap that A fish eventually grew lags, hair, feathers, or wings.
    A cat became a dog.
    Just call me Berd.
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