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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by Christinac130
    Did I miss the announcement where Insertion was made a mod?
    Stay tuned for breaking news...

    please stay on topic!
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  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    There are documents written by Columbus and Washington, ample historical and archeological evidence for the Ming dynasty, etc. .
    There are documents written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, Paul, John, Job, etc as well. They are books in the Bible. In addition, there is ample historical and archeological evidence of the events and places in the Bible as well, Jerusalem is teeming with Biblical locations that are still there today. Yes, we would all like to find the "home run" pieces (the Ark of the Covenant, Noah's Ark, pieces of the Cross, proof that the Shroud of Turin is real) to prove the Bible is more than stories, but maybe that's the point. God has pointed you in the direction He'd like for you to go, you need to do the rest on your own by faith and without proof. If we had all the pieces, wouldn't religion just be called archeology?
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  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    please stay on topic!
    Be polite!
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  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    In addition, there is ample historical and archeological evidence of the events and places in the Bible as well, Jerusalem is teeming with Biblical locations that are still there today.
    There is evidence for the locations such as Jerusalem or the Egypt (not that anybody ever doubted Egypt or Jerusalem), and also for some events (like the Jews leaving Egypt), but not for any events which really matter in a religious sense, such as god handing down the 10 Commandments, Jesus' resurrection, etc.
    Yes, we would all like to find the "home run" pieces (the Ark of the Covenant, Noah's Ark, pieces of the Cross, proof that the Shroud of Turin is real)
    What, you don't believe in those "home run" pieces at display in various churches around the world? Actually, the shroud of Turin was found to be a fake both by the Bishop of the place it was first presented in during the Middle Age as well as by independent radiocarbon dating in various scientific institutes, showing it was made during the Middle Age.[/QUOTE]
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    I figured this is where you'd go, so this will help demonstrate my point. Before I start, let me add my disclaimer to this. Even though I am taking the side of "faith", I am not convinced that either the "6th day" or "Big Bang" theories are correct. I have reasons to believe and doubt both. I think both are convenient theories, yet both leave lots of unanswered and difficult questions behind. But for the sake of debate, I will continue with the "faith" theory.
    *sigh* The Arguments of Personal Incredulity or the The Argument of Personal Ignorance still does not mean that thousands of scientists are wrong, or that hundreds of years of science are wrong.

    A few facts to enlighten you....
    There is little, real empirical evidence in the "Big Bang" theory. This theory is mostly just hypotheses of how something of this magnitude could happen, and for now it somewhat works, even though we are learning more and more about physics and the universe every day.
    Plenty of real evidence that Big Bang occured ....such as the expansion of the universe, the background radiation, abundance of helium etc.

    However, it flagrantly violates one of the tenets of physics, which is that matter is neither created nor destroyed.
    Matter can created and destroyed ....E=MC^2! Nuclear energy comes from destruction of matter.

    If everything has a beginning and an end, and if all that we know of can be traced back to this "Big Bang", well, something had to create the stuff that created the "Big Bang", right? Astro-physicists have conveniently left that part out of their argument.
    The Big Bang arose out a "singularity" ...what gave rise to this singularity is still highly speculative. However scientists suspect that other singularities may exist at the centers of certain blackholes (yes! blackholes exist in different shades of black!)

    The main thing is that science is always built on a solid foundation of verifiable evidence. Contrary to many assertions made here, it does not require a leap of faith or suspension of disbelief. If anyone truly wishes to "see" for himself or herself, they could spend the time and effort and build the necessary instruments to see viruses or blackholes. No amount of religious training or rational effort can get anyone to "see" God - one has to make that leap of faith and believe (which I do, by the way).
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  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Actually, the shroud of Turin was found to be a fake both by the Bishop of the place it was first presented in during the Middle Age as well as by independent radiocarbon dating in various scientific institutes, showing it was made during the Middle Age.
    [/QUOTE]

    I disagree - there is not enough evidence yet to dismiss it as a fake, nor as an authentic artifact. The radiocarbon techniques used were flawed and they ended up measuring surface contamination rather than the actual age of the shroud itself.

    The Catholic church has not taken an official position on the Shroud because they depend on science to provide more concrete answers which are still lacking.
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  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    I believe this thread has strayed waaaaaaay off topic!
    But at least we're true to the forum!!
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  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    I disagree - there is not enough evidence yet to dismiss it as a fake, nor as an authentic artifact. The radiocarbon techniques used were flawed and they ended up measuring surface contamination rather than the actual age of the shroud itself.
    I stick to my claim, based e.g. on information found here: "A weight of 20th century carbon equaling nearly two times the weight of the Shroud carbon itself would be required to change a 1st century date to the 14th century (see Carbon 14 graph). Besides this, the linen cloth samples were very carefully cleaned before analysis at each of the C-dating laboratories."

    (See also other remarks on latest developments, references, etc... but this is really WAY off topic, I tend to agree with the "mod" )
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  9. #69  
    *sigh* It must be rough to be so "enlightened", but thanks for proving my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    *sigh* The Arguments of Personal Incredulity or the The Argument of Personal Ignorance still does not mean that thousands of scientists are wrong, or that hundreds of years of science are wrong.
    This has never happened before, right? Like the earth has always been round, always revolved around the sun, and there was nothing smaller than dust?

    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    Plenty of real evidence that Big Bang occured ....such as the expansion of the universe, the background radiation, abundance of helium etc.
    None of this is real evidence. These are all possible outcomes out of an unproven theory. None of this definitely lays groundwork for any sort of "Big Bang" theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    Matter can created and destroyed ....E=MC^2! Nuclear energy comes from destruction of matter.
    This is just flat out wrong. Matter still cannot be created nor destroyed, it merely changes state. The matter "destroyed" in a nuclear reaction becomes energy, it doesn't just dissolve!

    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    The Big Bang arose out a "singularity" ...what gave rise to this singularity is still highly speculative. However scientists suspect that other singularities may exist at the centers of certain blackholes (yes! blackholes exist in different shades of black!)
    Speculative = unproven theory.
    Suspect = unproven theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    The main thing is that science is always built on a solid foundation of verifiable evidence. Contrary to many assertions made here, it does not require a leap of faith or suspension of disbelief. If anyone truly wishes to "see" for himself or herself, they could spend the time and effort and build the necessary instruments to see viruses or blackholes. No amount of religious training or rational effort can get anyone to "see" God - one has to make that leap of faith and believe (which I do, by the way).
    Always built on a solid foundation of verifiable evidence? I think not. And no, you can spend all the time and effort building computer models to predict how the "Big Bang" may have come to play, but you will never actually "see" how it happened, unless you happen to take some of that time and effort and build a wayback machine and be there live.

    Which should be pretty impressive considering you'd either have to be the size of a quark to be on the inside, or floating around in something that's not the universe and that science has failed to explain to be on the outside.
    Last edited by jmill72x; 08/03/2005 at 01:01 PM.
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  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    *sigh* It must be rough to be so "enlightened", but thanks for proving my point.

    This has never happened before, right? Like the earth has always been round, always revolved around the sun, and there was nothing smaller than dust?
    well .. the scientists got it right after a while - just took the church 500 years to concur.

    None of this is real evidence. These are all possible outcomes out of an unproven theory. None of this definitely lays groundwork for any sort of "Big Bang" theory.
    so, if there are hundreds of observations that fit the theory, then it is still unproven?

    This is just flat out wrong. Matter still cannot be created nor destroyed, it merely changes state. The matter "destroyed" in a nuclear reaction becomes energy, it doesn't just dissolve!
    The big bang does not say matter is created or dissolved either - the singularity is a source of enormous energy that is compressed into a one-dimensional space. This energy was released during the big bang as a mixture of matter and radiation energy.

    Speculative = unproven theory.
    Suspect = unproven theory.
    agreed. but since you don't accept even hard evidence as supportive of a theory - then how would you propose that scientific inquiry be conducted?


    Always built on a solid foundation of verifiable evidence? I think not. And no, you can spend all the time and effort building computer models to predict how the "Big Bang" may have come to play, but you will never actually "see" how it happened, unless you happen to take some of that time and effort and build a wayback machine and be there live.

    Which should be pretty impressive considering you'd either have to be the size of a quark to be on the inside, or floating around in something that's not the universe and that science has failed to explain to be on the outside.
    not exactly true - a verifiable theory does not just mean that you have to see, touch, taste, smell or hear it yourself. A theory can be predicitive. For example Einstein's theory of relativity predicted that a massive object would "bend" light. It took scientists a several years to experimentally prove his theory.
    In case of Big bang theory - the background radiation was predicted almost 30 years before it could be measured.
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  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    well .. the scientists got it right after a while - just took the church 500 years to concur.
    This was my point when you brought up "hundreds of years of science". It took hundreds of years to convince the world that it wasn't flat. Or that it wasn't the center of the universe. These were the prevailing scientific (with a religious slant) theories of the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    so, if there are hundreds of observations that fit the theory, then it is still unproven?
    The conversation was belief/faith vs fact. An observation of an event does not immediately lend itself to a possibly unrelated theory. The preponderance of a heavy metal in the solar system does not immediately validate the "Big Bang" theory. We were talking about concrete evidence of God. Background radiation no more proves the "Big Bang" than the Apostles referring to God in their Gospels do. In actuality, it's probably less.

    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    The big bang does not say matter is created or dissolved either - the singularity is a source of enormous energy that is compressed into a one-dimensional space. This energy was released during the big bang as a mixture of matter and radiation energy.
    Right, but my point was that something had to create the matter for the "Big Bang". What was that? Everything (except God, according to the Bible) has a beginning and an end. Whether you believe in God or not, you have to understand that that matter came from somewhere. I just want to know where. I don't care what the answer is (divine intervention or whatever), I'm just curious as to where. And I don't, and neither does science right now, have an answer for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    agreed. but since you don't accept even hard evidence as supportive of a theory - then how would you propose that scientific inquiry be conducted?
    No, I do accept hard evidence. Don't take my "viruses and black holes" speech from before as me saying I don't believe in them. My point was that just because you don't see them, or believe in them (like concrete proof of the existence of God), doesn't make them real. However, there is no hard evidence for the "Big Bang", just lots of theories. And these theories aren't universally accepted in the scientific community either, so it's hard to say they're correct yet, without proof and/or agreement.


    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    not exactly true - a verifiable theory does not just mean that you have to see, touch, taste, smell or hear it yourself. A theory can be predicitive. For example Einstein's theory of relativity predicted that a massive object would "bend" light. It took scientists a several years to experimentally prove his theory.
    In case of Big bang theory - the background radiation was predicted almost 30 years before it could be measured.
    This is true, but my point was that these are theories, and only theories, right now. Some will prove true, many won't. But they still aren't fact, they are unproven theories like I said.

    Don't take it that I'm defending this side of the argument as this is what I believe. As I stated earlier, there are parts of both theories that I believe and don't believe. I know enough to know that I don't know squat. There are lots of questions that will never be answered in my lifetime, unfortunately. Now whether or not the answers will be revealed to me in death.....
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  12. #72  
    jmill - i see where you're coming from. I've rambled about some of these things in previous threads. examples:
    Every aspect of science is in one sense "vulnerable" to some new as yet "undiscovered" fact that overturns the current paradigm. But being vulnerable does not mean it is invalid. Of course if anyone can come up with a reasonable new theoretical framework that explains all the currently known facts, then it would be accepted. The key word being reasonable.
    Here is a question - when you question the big bang theory - would you have the same level of skepticism about Newton's theory of gravitation? If no, why not? Are there not holes in the theory of gravitational forces?
    To this day physicists have not been able to establish a comprehensive theory (known as GUT: Grand Unification Theory) that accounts for all four basic forces of nature - weak, strong, electromagnetic and gravitational forces. Integrating the force of gravity has proved to be hardest - for an entire generation of physicists going back to Einstein. Even measuring gravitional waves is extremely hard and has not been conclusively proven. But that does not mean that people don't believe in the theory of gravitation.
    and an interesting quote, from the Life of Pi, for you (since you mentioned death) :
    I can well imagine an atheist's last words: "White, white! L-L-Love! My God!"--and the deathbed leap of faith. Whereas the agnostic, if he stays true to his reasonable self, if he stays beholden to dry, yeastless factuality, might try to explain the warm light bathing him by saying, "Possibly a f-f-failing oxygenation of the b-b-brain" and, to the very end, lack imagination and miss the better story.
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  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    and an interesting quote, from the Life of Pi, for you (since you mentioned death) :
    I've always wanted to rent that movie, is it any good?
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  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    I've always wanted to rent that movie, is it any good?
    I was quoting from the book "Life of Pi" by Yann Martel.

    I did see the movie "Pi" - all i can say is that it was weird and interesting
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  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    I was quoting from the book "Life of Pi" by Yann Martel.

    I did see the movie "Pi" - all i can say is that it was weird and interesting
    Whoops, a little confused there....
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  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    Whoops, a little confused there....
    then wait till you see "Pi"!!
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  17. #77  
    in an effort to get this thread back on topic ...

    SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE VANISHES, REPLACED BY NEW ENTITY CALLED STURCH

    Will Offer Salvation, Motor Vehicle Renewals on Sunday

    The separation of church and state, long considered a hallmark of American democracy, vanished early Sunday morning, replaced by a new institution called sturch.

    Scientists at the Clausen Observatory at the University of Minnesota, who for years have been monitoring a widening hole in the wall separating church and state, said that the wall disappeared entirely on Sunday morning shortly after 8:00 (EST).

    “We first noticed the hole in the wall developing about four years ago,” said the University of Minnesota’s Davis Logsdon. “But now it’s pretty much no wall and all hole.”

    While the exact shape and dimensions of the new church-state entity, sturch, remain to be determined, President Bush today installed as its official leader the Reverend Tom DeLay (R-Tex), the star player in this week’s “Justice Sunday” broadcast.

    At a formal swearing-in ceremony at the former White House, now called the Big White Cathedral, Rev. DeLay said that jettisoning the wall between church and state would benefit all Americans “except those who are anti-faith, and they know who they are.”

    He added that by combining the two traditionally separate institutions, sturch would allow congregants to seek salvation and motor vehicle renewals on Sunday without leaving their pews.

    As for the longstanding debate over taxing places of worship, Rev. DeLay said, “Since sturch is part of the government, it will be collecting taxes, not paying them, thank you very much!”

    Elsewhere, the groom of “runaway bride” Jennifer Wilbanks took back the engagement ring he gave her and replaced it with an electronic ankle bracelet.
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  18. #78  
    Where do you find these things? They are hysterical!
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  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    Where do you find these things? They are hysterical!
    check your PM
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  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    check your PM
    I got it. Thanks for sending me the link. That should help me get through the afternoon!
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