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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    I think we need daThomas here to clear this whole thing up.
    shhhhhh...it's nice and peaceful here.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  2. #22  
    I thought he was our resident expert.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    I thought he was our resident expert.
    shhhh...you'll inflate his bleached dome.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  4. #24  
    That's from thinking.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    That's from thinking.
    thinking bleaches your hair?

    Claire - quick stop your education!!!
    Palm m505 -> Treo600 (GSM ATT) -> Treo650 (Cingular) -> BB8700g -> BB Pearl
    "The point of living and of being an optimist, is to be foolish enough to believe the best is yet to come."
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    This is plain silly. If ghosts and leprechauns offend you, you're way too sensitive.
    I didn't say they did :-)

    They offend me to the same extent .. which is not much .. unless their believers start to offend me.
    --
    Aloke
    Cingular GSM
    Software:Treo650-1.17-CNG
    Firmware:01.51 Hardware:A
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    If I go to court and am ask to swear on a bible, I'm not going to wet my pants like some of you act like you would. Big deal, Bible, Koran, TV Guide, who cares...
    I wouldn't wet my pants or create a scene. I'll be happy in my own superciliousness.
    --
    Aloke
    Cingular GSM
    Software:Treo650-1.17-CNG
    Firmware:01.51 Hardware:A
  8.    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    ...I consider (until/unless confronted by hard evidence, that is repeatable and reproducable) all of these as figments of our imagination.
    I usually let these comments go by. This time I'll bite.

    Give us an example of repeatable and reproducible hard evidence that would suffice for you.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    I usually let these comments go by. This time I'll bite.

    Give us an example of repeatable and reproducible hard evidence that would suffice for you.
    Intercessory prayer with beneficial results for those prayed for, in a controlled setting following scientific standards (randomized groups, double-blind, etc.)? Could be a start, but it didn't work so far.

    OTOH, faith is defined by the absence of evidence, isn't it?

    If
    (A) there is some sort of god
    and
    (B) she/he wanted to give evidence for his/her existence,
    he/she could easily have done that.

    But there is no evidence, so either (A) or (B) do not apply.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Intercessory prayer with beneficial results for those prayed for, in a controlled setting following scientific standards (randomized groups, double-blind, etc.)? Could be a start, but it didn't work so far.

    OTOH, faith is defined by the absence of evidence, isn't it?

    If
    (A) there is some sort of god
    and
    (B) she/he wanted to give evidence for his/her existence,
    he/she could easily have done that.

    But there is no evidence, so either (A) or (B) do not apply.
    I agree with shopharim, normally I wouldn't bite in these conversations either, but I will add a little food for thought. There is evidence of the existence of God. Lots of it actually. It's all documented in the Bible. There just hasn't been any recent evidence that you KNOW of, like a huge spray painted sign. Like you said, it's all about faith.

    Just as I've never seen God, Jesus, or an angel, I've never seen a black hole or a virus, and we never question the existence of those.
    I'm back!
  11. #31  
    There is tangible evidence of viruses. If there wasn't, they wouldn't have been able to diagnose and label them as "viruses."
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by Christinac130
    There is tangible evidence of viruses. If there wasn't, they wouldn't have been able to diagnose and label them as "viruses."
    A person of faith will tell you there is tangible evidence of God in the Bible. If there were no Bible, you wouldn't be able to label anything as "God".

    My point isn't about the existence of viruses or not, my point was that there are things in this world that most of us haven't personally seen, like viruses, but believe in their existence because the experts told us so. You've never seen viruses, but you believe in them because a doctor told you that's what makes you sick. Would you believe a priest if he told you there is a God because He is what made you you?
    I'm back!
  13. #33  
    Actually, I was raised Catholic and am now Agnostic. So my answer would be "no."
  14.    #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Intercessory prayer with beneficial results for those prayed for, in a controlled setting following scientific standards (randomized groups, double-blind, etc.)? Could be a start, but it didn't work so far.

    OTOH, faith is defined by the absence of evidence, isn't it?
    No. How many times must that tired definition be trotted out?
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup

    If
    (A) there is some sort of god
    and
    (B) she/he wanted to give evidence for his/her existence,
    he/she could easily have done that.

    But there is no evidence, so either (A) or (B) do not apply.
    It's kind of like US patent and copyright laws...the one who files and gets the credit may or may not be the one who performed the work.

    Be that as it may, it is an accurate assessment of your position to say that if such an experiment had demonstrated beneficial results for the prayees, you would believe in the existence of God?

    A simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    I agree with shopharim, normally I wouldn't bite in these conversations either, but I will add a little food for thought. There is evidence of the existence of God. Lots of it actually. It's all documented in the Bible.
    The bible is a book like other books. What makes you think the things written in the bible are more true than those written in other books? Does the bible contain more evidence - solid, tangible evidence - than the writings about Buddha, Shiva, Zarathustra, etc. If so, which? Or do you think all of those books about gods are correct simultaneously?
    Just as I've never seen God, Jesus, or an angel, I've never seen a black hole or a virus, and we never question the existence of those.
    It is not about what you have seen yourself, it is the sum of the evidence. There are tons of rock-solid evidence for viruses. I can take you to a lab and we isolate viruses together and take a picture of them, show how they act, isolate their DNA or RNA, etc. The existence of black holes is very well documented, too.

    There is no evidence for god or gods, that's why it is called faith, "firm belief in something for which there is no proof".
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    A person of faith will tell you there is tangible evidence of God in the Bible.
    Such as?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by Christinac130
    Actually, I was raised Catholic and am now Agnostic. So my answer would be "no."
    But that is what you believe, and not what you learned from empirical evidence, right?

    That would be your faith.
    I'm back!
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    No. How many times must that tired definition be trotted out?
    So what's your definition of faith?
    Be that as it may, it is an accurate assessment of your position to say that if such an experiment had demonstrated beneficial results for the prayees, you would believe in the existence of God?

    A simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice
    Beneficial results from intercessory prayer in a solid study would not prove the existence of god/gods, but it would point into that direction and it would warrant further investigation. So far, no evidence points into the direction of supernatural powers, gods, etc.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    The bible is a book like other books. What makes you think the things written in the bible are more true than those written in other books?
    That's my point. You read other books and accept things that you've never seen or might even find as unbelievable as fact because it's written in a book with a scientific or historic slant. You've never met George Washington, King Tut, or Hammurabi, yet I'm sure you believe in the existence of all 3. Do you believe in John or Peter from the Bible? To take another step, do you believe Jesus was a real person in the Bible? It's a small step from there to God.

    I will ask you a serious question now, I'm not trying to call you out or anything, so please answer truthfully. How do you believe the universe and all life in it was formed?
    I'm back!
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Beneficial results from intercessory prayer in a solid study would not prove the existence of god/gods, but it would point into that direction and it would warrant further investigation. So far, no evidence points into the direction of supernatural powers, gods, etc.
    That's not exactly a simple "Yes" or "No"
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
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