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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeElmendorf
    Advice and consent doesn't mean that the minority party gets who they would select if they were in control. It also doesn't mean that 60 Senators support the nominee. It hasn't worked that way with past Presidents, and it shouldn't with this one. To do otherwise sets a dangerous precedent--and the Dems should remember that someday in the future they will control both the White House and the Senate--these things always change. Will they still hold the same position if when they do the GOP carries on like they have here?

    I think not.
    think again:

    "Richard Holbrooke, who Republicans delayed for 14 months as Bill Clinton's nominee to the U.N., refused to bypass the Senate with a recess appointment, saying that it would introduce him to the world body with no credibility or authority."
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by nudist
    think again:

    "Richard Holbrooke, who Republicans delayed for 14 months as Bill Clinton's nominee to the U.N., refused to bypass the Senate with a recess appointment, saying that it would introduce him to the world body with no credibility or authority."
    "WASHINGTON (AllPolitics, June 17) -- As his confirmation hearings for U.S. ambassador to the United Nations got under way Thursday, Richard Holbrooke apologized to a Senate committee for "carelessness" that he said led to "misperceptions" about ethical problems that stalled his nomination for a year.

    A year to the day since President Bill Clinton announced Holbrooke's nomination, the Senate Foreign Relations Committee began the first of three days of hearings. The nomination was almost derailed by allegations Holbrooke violated federal lobbying laws by using State Department contacts to help an investment firm he joined after ending his service as an envoy in 1996."

    It's even from CNN
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    So why dont the d's step up and help govern the country.
    Unfortunately, the dems are no better - they're also playing the zero-sum game and are playing partisan politics.
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  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    "WASHINGTON (AllPolitics, June 17) -- As his confirmation hearings for U.S. ambassador to the United Nations got under way Thursday, Richard Holbrooke apologized to a Senate committee for "carelessness" that he said led to "misperceptions" about ethical problems that stalled his nomination for a year.

    A year to the day since President Bill Clinton announced Holbrooke's nomination, the Senate Foreign Relations Committee began the first of three days of hearings. The nomination was almost derailed by allegations Holbrooke violated federal lobbying laws by using State Department contacts to help an investment firm he joined after ending his service as an envoy in 1996."

    It's even from CNN
    I guess that was a good example of a President who actually worked with the other side, rather than steamrolling over them. And at least Holbrooke had the decency to stand up and admit his "carelessness", rather than blindly defending his every action. We don't see too much of that anymore.
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    "The point of living and of being an optimist, is to be foolish enough to believe the best is yet to come."
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Maybe...but look at why? I (being left leaning) like his SS plan. But it was 'sold' to the public very poorly and the Dems managed to scare people into thinking that it will sink the system. I don't think the gay marriage ban is out of the question but it will take the GOP to sponsor it (a handful of states have already passed state constitutional amendments). I don't think stem cell is settled. Pres. Bush got what he wanted but the fact that his own Senate Majority Leader would come out and directly oppose him with his support for it doesnt convince me that he is holding his party together (another possible explanation is that Frist is trying to show his independence and 'leadership' for a presidential bid of his own.)
    I agree that the SS plan wasn't properly "sold" the the public. The Dems have no solution themselves, but since it is a complex issue, they are able to scare the public successfully and make the prez look incapable. Yet everyone agrees that SS needs fixing, but all the Dems can do is say that the Prez's plan wont work.
    The Dems have also shortchanged themselves by letting a minor faction (gays & lesbians) drive their agenda on issues like gay marriage. This is a trivial issue compared to other major issues (national security, economy etc.) at stake at the moment. And worse, these issues were able to galvanize the right-wingers and it eventually cost the Dems the election.

    On the other hand the Reps are in the danger of making the same mistakes - by pushing agendas on stem cell research and other "moral" issues to the forefront, and again ignoring the larger problems of the country. This could lead to a backlash later on ... and perhaps some of the Reps like Frist are getting the message.
    Palm m505 -> Treo600 (GSM ATT) -> Treo650 (Cingular) -> BB8700g -> BB Pearl
    "The point of living and of being an optimist, is to be foolish enough to believe the best is yet to come."
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    I guess that was a good example of a President who actually worked with the other side, rather than steamrolling over them. And at least Holbrooke had the decency to stand up and admit his "carelessness", rather than blindly defending his every action. We don't see too much of that anymore.
    It still took over a year At least he was given an up or down vote.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    I think politics should be more than a zero-sum game. Saying "you lost, so I'm going to steamroll over you" does not serve anyone - the only losers will be the general public caught in the partisan crossfire.
    we're in the crossfire now. As are a few of our nominees.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    It still took over a year At least he was given an up or down vote.
    yep ....it's only been 5 months with Bolton. All the Prez had to do wait till recess was over. After all even some of the Reps have concerns about him, not just the Dems
    Palm m505 -> Treo600 (GSM ATT) -> Treo650 (Cingular) -> BB8700g -> BB Pearl
    "The point of living and of being an optimist, is to be foolish enough to believe the best is yet to come."
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    yep ....it's only been 5 months with Bolton. All the Prez had to do wait till recess was over. After all even some of the Reps have concerns about him, not just the Dems
    But why not just vote him down based on these concerns. What value is there in prolonged (repetitive) debate?
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    But why not just vote him down based on these concerns. What value is there in prolonged (repetitive) debate?
    From what I understand, there were enuff votes to confirm him, that's why the d's wouldnt bring it to a vote.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    But why not just vote him down based on these concerns. What value is there in prolonged (repetitive) debate?
    It began as a partisan shot by the Dems to delay his nomination by a couple of weeks (back in April), but once a few Reps also signalled their concerns with him, then it was advantageous to both parties to delay a vote since it would look bad for Reps if the Prez's nominee was shot down, and Dems just didn't want him anyway.

    And quite honestly, Bolton is no comparison to Holbrooke. In spite of his abrasive style, Holbrooke was able to negotiate and seal a major peace accord in Bosnia, was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize and made significant progress in middleeast negotiations - all this before his nomination as UN ambassador

    Bolton does not have a track record - just strong opinions and an autocratic abrasive style.
    Palm m505 -> Treo600 (GSM ATT) -> Treo650 (Cingular) -> BB8700g -> BB Pearl
    "The point of living and of being an optimist, is to be foolish enough to believe the best is yet to come."
  12.    #32  
    " It's an unnecessary result, and the latest abuse of power by the Bush White House." - Senate Democratic Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev.

    ---------

    "The abuse of power and the cloak of secrecy from the White House continues. ... It's a devious maneuver that evades the constitutional requirement of Senate consent and only further darkens the cloud over Mr. Bolton's credibility at the U.N." - Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, D-Mass.

    ---------

    "It's sad that even while the president preaches democracy around the world, he bends the rules and circumvents the will of Congress in appointing our representative to the United Nations." - Sen. Frank R. Lautenberg, D-N.J.
    It never ceases to amaze me at the amount of gall that the extremes from either side take to distort the truth of a situation to serve their own one sided skewed perception of the Constitution, Powers at hand in a given position, and the reality of history. IMHO, it is despicable to turn on an issue solely based on whether it their guy doing it or it is the other guy.

    Now, without knowing the details, if the dems quoted above were talking George Washington appointing John Rutledge as Supreme Court chief justice with a recess appointment AFTER the Senate had rejected the nomination, then I might tend to agree with their statements.

    But I personally feel it is a far cry to claim abuse of power with using the historically common authority of recess appointments with a Dem filibuster candidate that the Senate has the Up votes to approve if given the chance.

    Recess Appointments Not Unique

    WASHINGTON — As a recess appointee, John Bolton (search), the newly placed U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, is neither unique nor necessarily politically and diplomatically hamstrung.

    --------------

    "Here in Washington, it may look a little tainted, but in foreign ministries around the world they know that they're dealing with somebody who has the authority of the president and indeed of the United States when he signs his commission," said Stephen Hess, scholar emeritus at the Brookings Institution.

    The president's power to make a recess appointment was originally conceived by the framers of the U.S. Constitution to fill sudden vacancies during the long congressional recesses. But such appointments have become increasingly common even as the recesses have become ever shorter. Appointments are set to expire at the end of the Senate's next session.

    So far, President Bush has made 110 recess appointments. Among the most controversial were William Pryor to be a judge on the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals and Charles Pickering to be a judge on the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals.

    --------------

    "Usually, when you have a Republican president, the Democrats don't like recess appointments, and when you have a Democratic president, Republicans don't like recess appointments," said Michael Barone, author of the Almanac of American Politics 2006.

    Modern presidents have used this power of recess appointments to side step a variety of Senate obstructions. President Clinton made 140 recess appointments during his two terms. The first President Bush made 77 in one term. Ronald Reagan had 240 in two terms.

    "There's firm basis for the recess appointment, there's nothing immoral, even you could say unethical about it, it's just part of the government structure in the United States," Hess said.

    The recess appointment dates to earliest days of the Republic when President George Washington tapped John Rutledge as Supreme Court chief justice in 1795. The Senate had rejected the nomination.

    President Eisenhower placed three justices on the Supreme Court through recess appointments — Earl Warren in 1953, William Brennan in 1956 and Potter Stewart in 1958. The Senate later confirmed all three.

    President Kennedy used his recess appointment power in 1961 to put Thurgood Marshall on the 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals, placing him on a path to become the nation's first black Supreme Court justice.

    "Thurgood Marshall was the very successful advocate for the NAACP legal defense fund, the Southern segregationists opposed him root and barrel and President Kennedy appointed him with a recess appointment," Barone explained.

    In many cases, including Bolton's, presidents have used recess appointments to counter a Senate filibuster or the threat of one. As a matter of checks and balances, the recess appointment is more firmly rooted. It's actually in the Constitution whereas the filibuster, a Senate delaying tactic first applied with regularity in the 1850s, is not.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,164443,00.html
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 08/02/2005 at 01:10 PM.
  13.    #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    It began as a partisan shot by the Dems to delay his nomination by a couple of weeks (back in April), but once a few Reps also signalled their concerns with him, then it was advantageous to both parties to delay a vote since it would look bad for Reps if the Prez's nominee was shot down, and Dems just didn't want him anyway.
    But even with the few Rep that may have expressed concerns, there were enough up votes to pass him through if the Dems had given him the chance for an up and down vote.
  14. #34  
    Am I the only one who feels like "Rome is burning" while elected officials are fiddling around?
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    It never ceases to amaze me at the amount of gall that the extremes from either side take to distort the truth of a situation to serve their own one sided skewed perception of the Constitution, Powers at hand in a given position, and the reality of history. IMHO, it is despicable to turn on an issue solely based on whether it their guy doing it or it is the other guy.
    Agreed - those who live in glass houses ....
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    "The point of living and of being an optimist, is to be foolish enough to believe the best is yet to come."
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Am I the only one who feels like "Rome is burning" while elected officials are fiddling around?
    Hey .. that's democracy for you.

    But quite honestly ...why do you say "Rome is burning"? I think things are going quite well for us (at least here in the US) right now. And who cares about an ambassador to the UN since we consider it to be an "irrelevant" institution anyway?
    Palm m505 -> Treo600 (GSM ATT) -> Treo650 (Cingular) -> BB8700g -> BB Pearl
    "The point of living and of being an optimist, is to be foolish enough to believe the best is yet to come."
  17. #37  
    "Caught You Napping", President Tell Congress

    With congress away for its customary August recess, President George W. Bush successfully avoided Senate confirmation hearings and named his dog, Barney, to the United States Supreme Court.

    In a Rose Garden ceremony, Mr. Bush told reporters that Barney would replace Chief Justice William Rehnquist, making the president’s five-year-old Scottish terrier the most powerful judge in the nation.

    “In the years since Barney came into our lives, he has been widely admired for his intellect, his sound judgment and his personal decency,” the president told reporters. “Basically, he is John Roberts with fur.”

    The president acknowledged that Barney’s scant legal experience would most likely have meant a contentious confirmation battle in the Senate, but he had these words for the vacationing legislators: “Caught you napping!”

    Sen. Minority Leader Harry Reid, vacationing in his home state of Nevada, offered a muted response to the canine’s nomination, telling reporters, “He couldn’t be that much worse than Rehnquist.”

    Given the unorthodox nature of the president’s Supreme Court pick, the White House press corps bombarded Mr. Bush with questions, but the president waved them off, ordering them to “take the rest of August off.”

    But Mr. Bush did say that he would take advantage of the congressional recess to push forward with a number of initiatives on his wish-list, including abolishing the Environmental Protection Agency, imprisoning Senator Edward Kennedy (D-Mass) at Guantanamo, and naming the Fox News Channel the fifty-first state.

    Elsewhere, Nike announced that it would produce a series of advertisements featuring NBA star Kobe Bryant, but said it was unlikely that the phrase “Just do it” would be part of the campaign.
    Palm m505 -> Treo600 (GSM ATT) -> Treo650 (Cingular) -> BB8700g -> BB Pearl
    "The point of living and of being an optimist, is to be foolish enough to believe the best is yet to come."
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    Agreed - those who live in glass houses ....
    Shouldnt shower with the drapes open.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Shouldnt shower with the drapes open.
    ahhh ...that explains all the annoyed looks I've been getting from my neighbours!
    Palm m505 -> Treo600 (GSM ATT) -> Treo650 (Cingular) -> BB8700g -> BB Pearl
    "The point of living and of being an optimist, is to be foolish enough to believe the best is yet to come."
  20. #40  
    Things get shriveled when they've been in water too long
    Well behaved women rarely make history
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