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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    What happens when Israel goes in and takes out these nuclear plants??
    Thousands of Americans die because the Iranian Army would attack Iraq/the US occupants and the Shiite majority in Iraq would close ranks with Shiite Iran?

    The US have shown how little they can do in Iraq - even too few to control insurgents and terrorists in an Iraq where quite a big part of the population is not actively fighting them, at least presently. That's an unfortunate development, but that's how it is.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    ... That's an unfortunate development, but that's how it is.
    Wrong
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  3.    #43  
    Actually, I know clulup is pretty well set in his view of Iraq......but I do think he has a point...at least to a point. Historically in situations like this the people do welcome the change and take an active participation in it, whether it is rebuilding or defending their new opportunities. I think the Bush Admin was depending on this to happen in Iraq to a certain degree as well. But maybe due to the Eastern culture, maybe they have the "freed slave" complex (where after so long of ruled over it is hard to self motivate), who knows, but this did not happen. Instead they seem to support a self defeating terrorist driven culture that attacks their infastructure, their gov, their security forces.

    I am only talking about Iraq in the Iran thread because it is a indication that the Mid-Eastern culture is hard to predict based on historical norms. Which makes Iran, especially now, such a wild card in many different scenarios IMHO.
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Actually, I know clulup is pretty well set in his view of Iraq......but I do think he has a point...at least to a point. Historically in situations like this the people do welcome the change and take an active participation in it, whether it is rebuilding or defending their new opportunities. I think the Bush Admin was depending on this to happen in Iraq to a certain degree as well. But maybe due to the Eastern culture, maybe they have the "freed slave" complex (where after so long of ruled over it is hard to self motivate), who knows, but this did not happen. Instead they seem to support a self defeating terrorist driven culture that attacks their infastructure, their gov, their security forces.

    I am only talking about Iraq in the Iran thread because it is a indication that the Mid-Eastern culture is hard to predict based on historical norms. Which makes Iran, especially now, such a wild card in many different scenarios IMHO.

    the "fundamental" question for me is what is it about hard core islamic belief that makes it so hostile to tolerance, so antaganistic to change, so fearful of alternate points of view ???
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  5.    #45  
    Your answer:

    I believe it is on the Winning WOT thread, but I posted several mission statements from groups like AQ. Basically they say that Democracy is from the Devil. God is the only one that can say what they can do, the the power of the people is a sinful ideology so bad that anyone who believes in it, defends it, votes within it, or even lives under it....not only needs to, but deserves to die. And it is their rightous duty to do the killing.

    Translation...."I want to keep the power. I want to tell the people what to do."
  6.    #46  
    .
  7. #47  
    The EU has no clout. It will take China having to get them to stop, and I doubt that will happen. China wants their oil.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    The EU has no clout. It will take China having to get them to stop, and I doubt that will happen. China wants their oil.

    China has no physical connection to Iran, China is not a supplier of their nuke stuff, nor do they have much of a diplomatic connection.

    What's more China is VERY hostile to its own moslems -- Iran is aware of and uncomfortable with that.

    China has influence (but not control) over N. Korea...
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    China has no physical connection to Iran, China is not a supplier of their nuke stuff, nor do they have much of a diplomatic connection.

    What's more China is VERY hostile to its own moslems -- Iran is aware of and uncomfortable with that.

    China has influence (but not control) over N. Korea...
    You speak with such authority, but it appears that you are incorrect about China's relationship with Iran.

    "China has been strengthening its ties in Iran, most importantly, in the energy field. It also has been doing business with Iran in the transfer of missile, and even nuclear technology,"

    "China's voracious energy appetite is in dire need of Iran's considerable oil and gas reserves. It also needs a lot of hard cash to pay for the ever-escalating prices of oil in a bullish seller's market.

    Story
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  10. #50  
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    You speak with such authority, but it appears that you are incorrect about China's relationship with Iran.

    "China has been strengthening its ties in Iran, most importantly, in the energy field. It also has been doing business with Iran in the transfer of missile, and even nuclear technology,"

    "China's voracious energy appetite is in dire need of Iran's considerable oil and gas reserves. It also needs a lot of hard cash to pay for the ever-escalating prices of oil in a bullish seller's market.

    Story

    both are true -- China wants Iran's oil -- but it is not now a supplier of nuke stuff to them (that could change).

    Russia and Pakistan has been Iran's main source for nuke tech.

    (And that article suggests that it has already begun to change !!)
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    both are true -- China wants Iran's oil -- but it is not now a supplier of nuke stuff to them (that could change).

    Russia and Pakistan has been Iran's main source for nuke tech.

    (And that article suggests that it has already begun to change !!)
    It looks like it already has..."It also has been doing business with Iran in the transfer of missile, and even nuclear technology"
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    It looks like it already has..."It also has been doing business with Iran in the transfer of missile, and even nuclear technology"

    ya I saw that -- which is why I added that last line

    Nothing more disruptive than to have 2 big newly powerful nations who have been marginalized in the old order of things -- wanting to reshuffle the deck now that they've become stronger !
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  14.    #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Russia and Pakistan has been Iran's main source for nuke tech.
    And rumored intel with NK.....
  15. #55  
    EU has few options as Iran talks near collapse

    "LONDON, Aug 12 (Reuters) - European negotiators have few options left to persuade Iran to halt sensitive atomic work and may have to come to terms with Tehran pursuing its nuclear programme, as two years of talks inch towards breakdown.

    European Union diplomats say privately Iran's resumption of sensitive nuclear work this week all but ends its talks with the trio of Britain, France and Germany, which have been trying to stop Iran developing a nuclear bomb."

    I guess we all knew this was coming.

    Story
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  16.    #56  


    EU submits Iran motion to U.N. agency
    Posted 9/23/2005 11:01 AM

    VIENNA (AP) — The European Union submitted a motion on Friday that sets Iran up for referral to the U.N. Security Council, and pushed for a decision Saturday when the 35-nation board of the International Atomic Energy Agency reconvenes.
    Iran increased its own pressure against referral, threatening to restart uranium enrichment — a possible pathway to nuclear arms, diplomats accredited to the agency told The Associated Press. They said Iran also warned it could block access for inspectors for the International Atomic Energy Agency it had agreed to under a document that Iran has not yet ratified.

    ---------------------

    The EU motion — a draft resolution to the IAEA's board of governors — calls on the 35-nation board to consider reporting Iran to the council. As grounds, it mentions non-compliance with provisions of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and suspicions that Iran's nuclear activities could threaten international peace and security, according to a draft copy obtained by the AP.

    ---------------------

    The Security Council could impose sanctions if it determines that Iran violated the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty, but veto-carrying council members Russia and China — which oppose even referral to the council — were certain to vote against such action, and the draft made no mention of sanctions.

    --------------------

    A nation's failure to comply with the non-proliferation treaty is automatic grounds for a report to the Security Council under IAEA statutes, and the draft said "Iran's many failures and breaches of its obligations ... constitute non-compliance."

    Additionally, Iran's spotty record on cooperating with an IAEA probe since that began in 2002 has resulted in an "absence of confidence that Iran's nuclear program is exclusively for peaceful purposes," the document said. That finding puts Iran "within the competence of the Security Council, as the organ bearing the main responsibility for the maintenance of international peace and security," the text said

    ------------------

    The Europeans for years avoided U.S. demands for support in its push to haul Iran before the Security Council. They reluctantly swung behind Washington last month, after Tehran effectively walked away from talks with Britain, France and Germany meant to reduce suspicions about its nuclear aims and began uranium conversion.


    FULL STORY: http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2...n_x.htm?csp=15

    .
  17.    #57  
    I just saw this within minutes after the last post. I am sure Iran will have a response by Monday:

    IAEA board passes EU resolution on Iran
    Sep 24, 11:43 AM (ET)
    http://reuters.myway.com//article/20...R-IRAN-DC.html

    Russian-made Sam-6 surface-to-air missiles are seen beside of a portrait of Iran's Supreme Leader...

    VIENNA (Reuters) - The U.N. nuclear watchdog's governing board passed an EU resolution on Saturday requiring that Iran be reported to the Security Council at an unspecified date over Tehran's nuclear program, a diplomat said.

    Rather than adopt the resolution by consensus as it prefers to do, the board voted on the text. There were 22 votes for the EU's draft, one vote against and 12 abstentions.

    In what EU diplomats said was a major victory for Western efforts to ratchet up the pressure on Tehran, both China and Russia, which had strongly opposed the EU's proposed resolution, abstained. Venezuela was the only country to vote against it.
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    both are true -- China wants Iran's oil -- but it is not now a supplier of nuke stuff to them (that could change).

    Russia and Pakistan has been Iran's main source for nuke tech.

    (And that article suggests that it has already begun to change !!)

    Iran got its' Nuk technoogy from Pakistan via the blackmarket Dr. Abdul Qadir Khan network. Most of it's missles are North Korean and Russian based.

    However it is correct that Russia, China and India ALL crave Iran's oil/NG reserves. All three blocks are also currently resisting EU and American efforts to reprimand Iran's nuk amibtions to the UNSC. Both China and India are competing to central Asian energy reserves and Iran is seen as a gateway to those states. In short the US has very weak levarage with these countries in regards to Iran...
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  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    China has no physical connection to Iran, China is not a supplier of their nuke stuff, nor do they have much of a diplomatic connection.

    What's more China is VERY hostile to its own moslems -- Iran is aware of and uncomfortable with that.

    China has influence (but not control) over N. Korea...
    Yeah but China is building a port in Gwadar Pak as port to access oil via C Asian states and they are trying to build pipelines via Kazak and etc. China has great interest in Iran energy reserves...
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  20.    #60  
    I know that with the time frame of the events of the discover of Iran's 20 year secrect nuke program that we needed to give them a chance to come clean and work at an negotiating table. but I also find it rather interesting that EU is always saying....just talk to them and the bad guys will turn around....and now they have failed and are doing what they did not want to do and that the US suggested would more than likely have to happen a year ago.
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