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  1. NRG
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       #1  
    I am starting this thread for the folks who feel they must discuss Iraq and motives in my other thread that says not to post opinions. This thread will be a free for all post whatever the hell you like here.

    Rules?

    1) Credible sources


    GO

    Iraq has made us less safe and has enticed the fence sitting muslims to go the way of terrorist groups.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2005Jan13.html
  2. #2  
    NRG: I am assuming that this is the thread you wanted us to move to? (I hope so..)

    Quote Originally Posted by Baer
    You guys (T2gungho included...don't want to leave you out again)..
    Thanks. You have added a little more meaning to my life by including me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Baer
    sound like a bunch of Michael Moore mockingbirds. If a poor country in Africa were ruled by a dictator cutting up women's private parts, starving his people, dropping weapons of mass destruction on neighboring folks who believe differently than he, torturing thousands....and more and more and more...you would be bleeding hearts to go help those folks....but if Sadam does it...let's turn the other cheek and let it happen.
    First off, when you start flinging the Michael Moore comparisons, you start to lose credibility (IMO) because now instead of debating what I wrote, you resort to name-calling, stereotyping and labeling. You would be much better off just making points and arguing counterpoints (again IMO You may do as you wish.) Second, I am not saying (neither is anyone else I think ) that Sadaam was not a bad person (I actually think a good argument could and can be made for his removal.) However, that is not the reason why (and what we were told) when we invaded Iraq. Please don't lose sight of that. Now you might argue that it doesnt matter because we are there now. But, I think its important to know the how and why. I will not simply follow along because I am being told to do so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Baer
    You have two ways of thinking about everything...this way and that way...just like Kerry...which is one reason he lost.
    Maybe, I don't know and it really goes beyond the scope of the Iraq Good v. Bad thread dont you think?
    Quote Originally Posted by Baer
    That is your main problem anyway,.you lost again and again and can't stand it.
    You seem to be reaching for anything now. We arent talking about the 2004 Pres. election Baer. We are talking about Iraq. When you bring in all these other things, it just dillutes your message. What does the fact that the Dems lost the Pres. election have to do with anything that I have said to you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Baer
    Wake up and look what has happened to your party and beliefs and if you really think you want to change things to be your way, you need to think of a better way to get into the presidents office.
    I agree that the Dems approach was unsuccessful (obviously since Kerry lost ) but again...stay on point. What has that have to do with the good and bad in Iraq?
    Quote Originally Posted by Baer
    Then maybe your next candidate (Hillary (ha ha)) will do something about it. Like I said, the majority voted and voted Mr Bush back into office. Since we live in a country where majority rules, work with it.
    Again. I have no issue with Pres. Bush....only his foreign policy. You need to seperate out the politics here. I could make the exact same arguments even if Kerry had one and made the exact same decisions to go to war in Iraq (its politically independent.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Baer
    ...otherwise you look just like the sad losers that you are,,,,whining about everything. MOVE ON.org....whine whine
    I already posted about this to ezbuzko(?). Is there really a reason to move on when we are still in Iraq. Its not like the issue is moot? As you put it...I can't 'whine' about something because I didn't win an election or because I haven't put up a feasible alternative (actually Hobbes and I did work on different ideas in another thread).
    Quote Originally Posted by Baer
    I don't have to put up answers to your weak arguments...you already know them.
    the Baer
    Baer: where have you put up any answers to my arguments? Now, I don't want to badger so if you arent interested in debating an issue with me, thats fine, I won't hold it against you. Just please don't claim to do something that you havent. You are more than welcome to your opinion.
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  3. NRG
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       #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    NRG: I am assuming that this is the thread you wanted us to move to? (I hope so..)
    Perfect thank you.
  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by thebaer
    Barye
    YOu must be daThomas's big brother
    the Baer
    Just someone else pointing out how you are incapable of supporting your position and rely instead on personal insult when challenged.

  5. #5  
    t2gungho
    No..I really do not want to continue to debate with YOU, as you will never change your mind.....nor will I. It is a waste of my time to do so and yours as well. I can provide as many creible sources for you as you like http://www.cia.gov/cia/reports/iraq_...ap5.html#sect0
    Here is but one. But no matter how many google searches I do....you can do the same. You are not going to believe that the head cutting terrorists are capable of launching WMD attacks or that they had WMD....when I do believe that they did, they used them on their own people, they still had some in storage, that they moved some to Syria......and no telling what else they have now or will have in the future. If your beliefs make you feel better about the situation and arguing your points as well as the points of others,,great and good for you,,it is really all mute. When it finally goes down.....no one will be there to say we told you so. and as far as that other fellow goes with the dyed hairdo, I saw him lambashed last night in his other rant when he simply copied a full page of google search information and presented as if it was his credible crap. How did he say it...oh yeah ......pulleeze....give me a break....
    so...thanks for the opportunity with this new thread and all...and I never name called or intended it to come off that way..however if any of the shoes fit please put them on...... I only made comparisons. Most of the Bush haters continue to dwell on anything and everything they can about him and his actions to accomplish what? He will finish his term and you can go to the polls again and make the best of it. The rest of it is absolutley whining until the next election and another waste of time. Sure you can speak out...no problem. Do you think it is getting anything done? Next you will tell me that you support the troops but not the president....and of course you suppor the U.N. that also supported war time actions towards Iraq as well since they did not co-operate....well why should they,,,,the U.N. head was on Sadam's payroll....
    Have a good day
    the Baer
    the Baer
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by thebaer
    ...You are not going to believe that the head cutting terrorists are capable of launching WMD attacks or that they had WMD....when I do believe that they did, they used them on their own people,
    WTF are you talking about? Are you grouping the former Iraqi Bathist party with Islamic terrorists? (for that matter, do you even know what the Bathist party is?)


    Quote Originally Posted by thebaer
    ...and as far as that other fellow goes with the dyed hairdo, I saw him lambashed last night in his other rant when he simply copied a full page of google search information and presented as if it was his credible crap. ...
    If that is a reference to me, you better cite, because I did no such thing.
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco
    I don't know if this has been posted yet here. If it has, an article this good deserves a 2nd go around...

    http://www.blackfive.net/main/2005/0..._and_abbe.html

    Oh gag. That's not an article. It's a raving right wing blog post.
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Oh gag. That's not an article. It's a raving right wing blog post.
    and your point....
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco
    and your point....
    IMHO should we not try to avoid posting such obviously slanted opinion pieces (and please don't utter the phrase "liberal media").

    BTW Anyone watch "Over There" last night?
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by thebaer
    t2gungho
    No..I really do not want to continue to debate with YOU, as you will never change your mind.....nor will I. It is a waste of my time to do so and yours as well.
    First off, if you don't want to respond, that is fine. I don't want (nor intend) for this to ever be personal. I have said this in other threads but its worth repeating. I want to learn and share information with and from others. By exchanging different points of view, even if I don't agree with you, I at least get a better understanding of the other 'side'.

    Baer: I am much more open-minded than what you give me credit for.
    Quote Originally Posted by thebaer
    I can provide as many creible sources for you as you like http://www.cia.gov/cia/reports/iraq_...ap5.html#sect0
    Here is but one. But no matter how many google searches I do....you can do the same. You are not going to believe that the head cutting terrorists are capable of launching WMD attacks or that they had WMD....when I do believe that they did, they used them on their own people, they still had some in storage, that they moved some to Syria......and no telling what else they have now or will have in the future.
    I looked at that link..it basically said that Sadaam never intended to give up on getting WMD's and that he didnt have any and what he did have was crippled by the first Gulf War. At best, he was trying to reconstitute his program. If thats the case, why the link? What does the link do to support your position that they had and were able to use WMD's on us (or their own people?)

    Also, assuming for a moment that what you say you believe is true, how does that in itself justify invading Iraq? (at this point, most can agree that other countries have more/sophisticated WMD's and had more terrorists prior to the invasion).

    Also, where did I state that I didnt think that the 'head cutting terrorists' were capable of launching WMD attacks? I think they are capable (in the sense that they are willing but do we know that they have WMD's and if they do, why havent they used them yet?)...my concern is that (arguably) there are more terrorists than before and we still don't have a solid border policy to thwart someone from gaining access to the U.S. with a WMD. (I say that to point out how I think the war in Iraq quite possibly has distracted us from our initial goal of getting the terrorists behind the 9/11 attacks and to prevent them from doing it again.)
    Quote Originally Posted by thebaer
    If your beliefs make you feel better about the situation and arguing your points as well as the points of others,,great and good for you,,it is really all mute.
    Like I mentioned above, I want to understand the other point of view. I may not 'like' it but if it makes sense, then I am more willing to be swayed by the alternative point of view. I am not trying to 'feel better' about the situation.
    Quote Originally Posted by thebaer
    When it finally goes down.....no one will be there to say we told you so.
    This sentence seems to indicate that in some way I 'want' it to go down. Nothing could be further from the truth. I simply am expressing a point of view that we (possibly) could do a better job of preventing a WMD attack by doing other things (as stated above).
    Quote Originally Posted by thebaer
    and as far as that other fellow goes with the dyed hairdo, I saw him lambashed last night in his other rant when he simply copied a full page of google search information and presented as if it was his credible crap. How did he say it...oh yeah ......pulleeze....give me a break....
    so...thanks for the opportunity with this new thread and all...and I never name called or intended it to come off that way..however if any of the shoes fit please put them on...... I only made comparisons.
    I cant speak for DA (or anyone else). I ask that you only judge the merits of my argument on the words that I use. Can I agree with you that some people (no one specifically) get uptight when we critique or defend the administrations actions...sure. Its only because we care that we get uptight (and caring about what goes on around us is another admirable trait in my book.)
    Quote Originally Posted by thebaer
    Most of the Bush haters continue to dwell on anything and everything they can about him and his actions to accomplish what? He will finish his term and you can go to the polls again and make the best of it. The rest of it is absolutley whining until the next election and another waste of time. Sure you can speak out...no problem. Do you think it is getting anything done?
    Again, you seem to generalize about other things (and other people). There are many things that I like about Pres. Bush. I am far from a hater unless you limit it to one issue (foreign policy) and if you judge a president simply on one issue alone, then its seems to be very narrow-minded.
    Quote Originally Posted by thebaer
    Next you will tell me that you support the troops but not the president....
    You do realize the fallacy in this argument (its been played out before). But for brevity's sake: one can support the troops by wanting them to have the best equipment, the best pay, the best medical and VA support and still be against a policy of putting them in harms way when its not a 'last resort'. It's not an 'all or nothing' situation where you have to be for and against something (can you agree with that? If not, how do you see it?)
    Quote Originally Posted by thebaer
    Have a good day
    You too. (BTW-what kind of bike is that in your avatar? My father has a Springer.)
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  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    IMHO should we not try to avoid posting such obviously slanted opinion pieces (and please don't utter the phrase "liberal media").

    BTW Anyone watch "Over There" last night?
    Right, because everything you post is in no way slanted and everyone who forms an opinion that isn't yours is on the 'right', and therefore, in your opinion, is wrong.

    Brillant!
    Ever hear of the 1st Ammendment?


    (BTW, what is 'Over There'? Is it one of those news channel shows?)
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco
    Right, because everything you post is in no way slanted and everyone who forms an opinion that isn't yours is on the 'right', and therefore, in your opinion, is wrong.

    Brillant!
    Ever hear of the 1st Ammendment?


    (BTW, what is 'Over There'? Is it one of those news channel shows?)
    Oh come on! That blog post you cited was pure editorial.

    Re: Over There, Clicky .
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    First off, if you don't want to respond, that is fine. I don't want (nor intend) for this to ever be personal. I have said this in other threads but its worth repeating. I want to learn and share information with and from others. By exchanging different points of view, even if I don't agree with you, I at least get a better understanding of the other 'side'.
    I have to agree....t2gungho is no doubt left leaning....but is not a Far Lefty. He does listen and responds insightful comments. He has even been know to agree with right leaning points of view , after a valid and cited argument has been presented. But even he doesn't agree, he will respect your point of view.

    Now as far as Da is concerned... ...unless you totally dump every flavor of Kool-Aid (and had better throw in all your Crystal Light and Hot Chocolate too, just to be safe) in your cupboard down the drain with the garbage disposal blaring, you might as well give up! If he ever was able to be guest host for O'Reilly (which is funny to even comtemplate) he would have to change the show's logo for the week. "You are about to enter the No Kool-Aid Zone!"
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 08/04/2005 at 08:13 PM.
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    BTW Anyone watch "Over There" last night?
    Man.....that was last night? I missed it. I really wanted to watch it. Was it pretty good?
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    I have to agree....t2gungho is no doubt left leaning....but is not a Far Lefty. He does listen and responds insightful comments. He has even been know to agree with right leaning points of view , after a valid and cited argument has been presented. But even he doesn't agree, he will respect your point of view.

    Now as far as Da is concerned... ...unless you totally dump every flavor of Kool-Aid (and had better through in all your Crystal Light and Hot Chocolate too just to be safe) in your cupboard down the drain with a the garbage disposal blaring, you might as well give up! If he ever was able to guest host for O'Reilly (which is funny to even comtemplate) he would have to change the show's logo for the week. "You are about to enter the No Kool-Aid Zone!"
    LOL...thanks Hobbes. If I HAD too, I could also defend the conservative position on pretty much any issue. (How you may ask? Simple, I gleen all the good arguments from all of you by engaging in these healthy debates ). I typically take the liberal position on this forum because it is predominately conservative (Im not really sure why either (topic for another thread?) since the country is roughly 50/50. On another forum (www.4lawschool.com) I take the conservative position on issues because it tends to be more liberal.

    I JUST LIKE TO ARGUE. (But don't take that to mean that I don't have my own opinion, I do, but I don't get paid for my opinion, I get paid (or will eventually) to sway you to my client's opinion.)
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  16. #16  
    t2gungho
    Neither of us will sway either way and you know it. Like you said..you just like to argue. If I thought I could quote enough material to change your mind, I would do it....but it is useless........YOu know it and I know it...so why bother.
    That is a 99 Roadking Custom......riding for 22 years........
    and yes,..to another posted message...I saw "Over There" last night......and I have seen it first hand.........which way you saw it...leaning to the left or leaning to the right. The poor guy whose wife was already cheating on him....my goodness .......they showed all the worst if they could.....he had only been gone a week and she was already cheating. She must have missed him so much after just one week. My son is also in the Navy and that branch of service has the most problems with women leaving their husbands while they are gone even during peace time ....while they are at sea for months...I don't know if it is specific to Iraq wartime.....at any rate..I am sure this will make great entertainment for the American public....that is what it is supposed to be isn't it?
    rhetorical...you don't have to answer that or disect each message to make your points...are you practicing to be a trial lawyer? (again rhetorical) and even if you are, it is an uphill battle trying to convert a conservative or a liberal....you will have to find one of the "undecided" to work on....thanks though
    You are being to kind to me after all I have done....but some of my opinions seem to be popular in this forum with some people...
    the Baer
    the Baer
  17. #17  
    I watched it last night ...it was quite good.
    I have two of my college buddies and couple of relatives over there now.
    One acquaintance, a Marine, was discharged earlier this year after he tried to committ suicide a couple of times. I knew him reasonably well, and he never seemed that kind of guy. His sister told me that he had gotten sick of shooting children.
  18. #18  
    "Over There" was pretty good. My main interest in viewing it is because the regular media is incapable of doing any jounalism in the Country at the moment.
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by thebaer
    t2gungho
    Neither of us will sway either way and you know it. Like you said..you just like to argue.
    But thats the point. I really have no 'dog in the fight'. Whomever makes the more logical argument wins in my book so I guess we will have to agree to disagree that I cannot be swayed.
    Quote Originally Posted by thebaer
    If I thought I could quote enough material to change your mind, I would do it....but it is useless........YOu know it and I know it...so why bother.
    I think thats the problem though. You can't just quote me material..you have to show what you are quoting supports your argument. If you just quote it and don't explain why or how it supports you, its too easy for me to conclude otherwise.
    Quote Originally Posted by thebaer
    That is a 99 Roadking Custom......riding for 22 years........
    Nice.
    Quote Originally Posted by thebaer
    You are being to kind to me after all I have done....but some of my opinions seem to be popular in this forum with some people...
    There is no doubt about that but I usually take the road less travelled and I don't have to tell you that there might be many things that are more popular but not very logical
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  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by thebaer
    t2gungho
    Neither of us will sway either way and you know it...

    ....thanks though You are being to kind to me after all I have done....but some of my opinions seem to be popular in this forum with some people...
    the Baer

    Baer, the truth is most us crave someone new to the forum with whom we can engage - we welcome the opportunity to have a fresh voice to disagree with. Its too easy for these discussions to become stale and predictable.

    Ive only been here a brief time, and already many people dont bother reading me because they think they can anticipate what Ill have said.

    Though Hobbes didnt point to me directly, its no secret that Im someone hed associate with the far left.

    But to our great chagrin, even he, me, and others recently found ourselves strongly agreeing with one another on a range of unexpected issues.

    We want you here if only because you disagree with us. How many times can I say to NRG or da Thomas that I agree with what theyve written?? It would get old real fast if everyone here agreed.

    Argue passionately, rationally, but be prepared to answer and persuade with facts and reason. Savage sarcasm, mockery, and humor is part of the game, but not ad hominem responses, not personal insults.

    Like I said - Im new here myself. And if youd read more of my posts youd see that I ain't no saint - many of my posts are angrily inflammatory - and intended to be.

    But to the great credit of even those who virulently disagree with me, I cant recall a single personal insult in response.

    Believe what you want but expect to be able to defend your point of view while showing respect for those who may disagree.
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