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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by ronbo2000
    Are we all at one time, illegal immigrants to this country (may not be you but your older relatives escaping the horrors of war, etc. trying to find peace and better life), maybe we should give back to the local Indian tribes what they own before the white man took over.
    We are not in a position to fully address the attrocities involved in the founding of this nation. We do, however, give considerable financial advantages to descendents of the earlier residents of the land.

    I think a key factor was in Pamela's observation about language. Immigration used to be an effort by foreigners to become Americans. Today, immigration is largely about foreigners wanting to profit from the American productivity without becoming Americans.

    Our laws serve the purpose of helping integrate newcomers into our way of life. You learn the language. You learn the history. You learn the rights, privilieges and responsibilities of citizenship. You demonstrate that knowledge by examination. You demonstrate your commitment to be productive by working here the required amount of time all the while abiding by our laws.

    Upon successful completion of all the above, you are granted citizenship.

    Does the land belong to us? No
    Does land truly belong to anyone? No

    However, as a society/culture, we do have the right to establish standards as to how we will interact with one another. Think about it, our Consitution is nothing more than an agreement as to how we will live together. It is a means of helping establish order. And, it is reasonable for us to expect that others who want to be in our society will submit to that order. Otherwise, they can choose to go where the order is more to their liking.

    People who are in the midst, but not in the mix are threats.
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by mediasi
    Are you aware of the process of becoming a resident? While it's lengthy and many do hire legal counsel, it's not such a difficult process if yer legit. I know plenty of people who migrated here and are now legal. Takes time, takes some money, but it's not an impossible process. There are plenty of people granted legal status every day.

    Pamela
    I hear different stories from my dutch friends who live in the US and they are highly trained IT people, so for a poor mexican labourer I can immagine it will be pretty hard..
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    I think a key factor was in Pamela's observation about language. Immigration used to be an effort by foreigners to become Americans. Today, immigration is largely about foreigners wanting to profit from the American productivity without becoming Americans.
    Why should one have to become the nationality of the nation it works and lives in?
    If you would move to india for work, would you become indian?

    Personally I lived and worked in 2 foreign countries, but kept my dutch nationality. It is part of my identity and I don't see any point of becomming british or australian at this point at all. I live here as a legal alien and pay my taxes, abide by the law and that is fine.

    The only good reason to become citisen is because you get voting rights for the national elections..
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    Why should one have to become the nationality of the nation it works and lives in?
    If you would move to india for work, would you become indian?

    Personally I lived and worked in 2 foreign countries, but kept my dutch nationality. It is part of my identity and I don't see any point of becomming british or australian at this point at all. I live here as a legal alien and pay my taxes, abide by the law and that is fine.

    The only good reason to become citisen is because you get voting rights for the national elections..
    I'm glad you framed the question as you did, because it helps me refine my view.

    It is not so much becoming a citizen that is critical, as much as respecting the order. If you are going to participate in an established society, you should participate according to its governing structure (which carries with it the option of working within it to change the structure if you so desire). This is what you are doing (i.e. you are a legal alien, paying taxes and abiding by the law).
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    I warned about the rapture -- you don't suppose that we were both left behind, do you ??!!!
    Man I knew I shouldn't have hit that snooze button for the that last time yesterday morning!
  6. #46  

    The real anology with off-shoring is that in both instances employers are leveraging the availability of cheap workers (in this case overseas), to maximize their profit at the expense of american citizens).
    While I agree with most points in this thread regarding the concerns over illegal aliens, I think points like this one are somewhat short sighted.

    Specifically, the ability for employers to utilize cheap workers (either offshore or illegal onshore) allows them to price their produces or services competitively and American citizens benefit from these lower prices.

    The use of low cost labor (especially illegal labor) concerns me, but I recognize that without it, the costs of a lot of things that I consume would be significantly higher and therefore I don't think you can say that American citizens don't benefit from these low cost workers.
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    #47  
    The success of something like this depends totally on the number who are allowed to get jobs legally with or without option to become citizens. If the supply allowed is too small, then it will be useless. It will just become yet another prohibition, and will probably be about as effective as the programs to limit the use of illegal drugs.
    Less than 400 posts to get my own little treo icon!
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by geneld
    While I agree with most points in this thread regarding the concerns over illegal aliens, I think points like this one are somewhat short sighted.

    Specifically, the ability for employers to utilize cheap workers (either offshore or illegal onshore) allows them to price their produces or services competitively and American citizens benefit from these lower prices.

    The use of low cost labor (especially illegal labor) concerns me, but I recognize that without it, the costs of a lot of things that I consume would be significantly higher and therefore I don't think you can say that American citizens don't benefit from these low cost workers.
    On the other hand, those without income do not benefit from the lower costs.
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by KRamsauer
    I've never understood the anger some have toward people who just want to go to work every day, pay their taxes and live their lives in peace. Give it a rest.
    Illegals don't pay income taxes, outside of sales tax.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    On the other hand, those without income do not benefit from the lower costs.
    True, but my point was that it is not fair to say that low cost labor (where ever it comes from) does not benefit the American Citizen.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by geneld
    True, but my point was that it is not fair to say that low cost labor (where ever it comes from) does not benefit the American Citizen.
    That was understood.

    My point was, it does not matter how low the sales price is to citizens who do not have income because the type of work they are equipt/qualified to perform is not available in the States.

    I suppose if we merge our two sentiments, we can concule that some American citizens benefit from low cost labor, namely those whose professions are not off-shored.
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    That was understood.

    My point was, it does not matter how low the sales price is to citizens who do not have income because the type of work they are equipt/qualified to perform is not available in the States.

    I suppose if we merge our two sentiments, we can concule that some American citizens benefit from low cost labor, namely those whose professions are not off-shored.
    Agreed, although I might say most Americans benefit at least partially since we are all consumers and that is where the benefit is realized.
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by geneld
    True, but my point was that it is not fair to say that low cost labor (where ever it comes from) does not benefit the American Citizen.
    There is no doubt that we each benefit for illegal workers, but does it make it right? We would also benefit with lower costs if companies did not have to worry about obeying the laws to conserve and protect the environment. If they did not have worry about product safety issues and gain gov approval if needed. We could be paying less if we did not have provide extra security thieves and terrorists. We would have cheaper products if companies did not have to pay taxes (which some have been found guilty of when paying illegals under the table).

    The point is there are a lot things that we would all benefit from if companies either broke the law or disregarded the safety of the public or their customers. The question might be, why is breaking the illegal immigrant law different than any other national security law they have to abide by? Should immigration laws be exempt from prosecution if violated because it benefits the customer? If so, what other laws then can we ignore to lower the price of products and services for the American consumer?
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal

    if companies did not have to worry about obeying the laws to conserve and protect the environment. If they did not have worry about product safety issues and gain gov approval if needed. !!!!
    That Hobbes guy -- he speaks for me !!!
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
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