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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by KRamsauer
    So because they prevent others from getting jobs (a questionable assertion) they are expected to sit by and not better themselves? That's a terribly selfish POV.
    I have, in my life, lived in to specific areas of the country over populated by illegal immigrants. One was a city in Arkansas (inundated with illegal immigrants from Mexico), and the other, where I live now, Miami.

    They can get a job, a driver's license and birth children to become American citizens. So, why can't they just go through the legalities of becoming "legal?"

    We already have a survival law here - if they can make the waters and hit land without getting caught, they're in.

    Unfortunately, illegal immigration DOES effect taxes and economy. The majority of illegal immigrants get benefits - totally free health care (yep - no status, no money, free care). Since they don't have an SS# or credit reporting agency number, it won't affect them at all if there are bills they don't pay.

    What I dislike the most, however, is, that though I was born and raised in the US, I can't special order a meal - because I don't speak Spanish. I can't get what I want (nor find what I want in a store) because finding a worker who speaks English is a rarity.

    There are children here who know not one word of English by the time they reach kindergarten. Which means more money has to be spent teaching them, and means other children in the area cannot communicate with "the girl two doors down."

    In most areas like this educational standards are lower because of a language barrier.

    Pamela
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  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by KRamsauer
    Seem simplistic. They are still humans.

    And we are already wrong. When someone wants to work, they should be able to.
    Yes, they are human. But how does that grant them exceptions when it comes to the law?

    Yes, someone should be able to work, but there are legal issues as well.

    Have you ever known someone who ultimately lost a job (or didn't get a job) because an illegal immigrant would do the same job for less?

    Please tell me who is better off... the American who is home on welfare because illegals will work off the books for less, or the illegal who works off the books, doesn't pay taxes, and hits the Post Office every Friday to send international money orders back home?

    Yep - the majority of illegals take that tax-free money and ship it right out of the country (how does THAT help our economy?).

    Pamela
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  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by KRamsauer
    My argument is they would be more productive and a larger addition to our economy and culture if we didn't have witch hunts out there looking to "send them back where they came from."
    And there would be no reason for witch hunts if they'd just register themselves when they enter the country and apply for status.

    Pamela
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       #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by mediasi
    I have, in my life, lived in to specific areas of the country over populated by illegal immigrants. One was a city in Arkansas (inundated with illegal immigrants from Mexico), and the other, where I live now, Miami.

    They can get a job, a driver's license and birth children to become American citizens. So, why can't they just go through the legalities of becoming "legal?"

    We already have a survival law here - if they can make the waters and hit land without getting caught, they're in.

    Unfortunately, illegal immigration DOES effect taxes and economy. The majority of illegal immigrants get benefits - totally free health care (yep - no status, no money, free care). Since they don't have an SS# or credit reporting agency number, it won't affect them at all if there are bills they don't pay.

    What I dislike the most, however, is, that though I was born and raised in the US, I can't special order a meal - because I don't speak Spanish. I can't get what I want (nor find what I want in a store) because finding a worker who speaks English is a rarity.

    There are children here who know not one word of English by the time they reach kindergarten. Which means more money has to be spent teaching them, and means other children in the area cannot communicate with "the girl two doors down."

    In most areas like this educational standards are lower because of a language barrier.

    Pamela
    Miami "Sunny Place, For Shady People" is bad, Burger Kings are in spainish.!
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by KRamsauer
    We need to make it easier for those that want to become productive members of society (ours or someone else's) to live within the law, not beyond it. You need to keep track of people in this day and age, and so we can't just say come one come all, drop us a line if you want. But we should allow many more people to enter legally than we do now. That would cut down on illegal immigration, I think.
    Are you aware of the process of becoming a resident? While it's lengthy and many do hire legal counsel, it's not such a difficult process if yer legit. I know plenty of people who migrated here and are now legal. Takes time, takes some money, but it's not an impossible process. There are plenty of people granted legal status every day.

    Pamela
    Using my treo 650 for business:
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  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by KRamsauer
    ....we should allow many more people to enter legally than we do now. That would cut down on illegal immigration, I think.


    This is one of the least logical statements I've ever read.

    Do you have a basis for that theory, any facts to support it ???

    Are you postulating that if we have UNLIMITED legal immigration, that the resulting abundance of legal workers will so saturate the job market that wages will become so distressed that Illegal undocumented workers will no longer see the U.S, as the land of easy jobs ??
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  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by mediasi
    And there would be no reason for witch hunts if they'd just register themselves when they enter the country and apply for status.

    Pamela
    But many cannot do so (only so many people are allowed to each year, I believe) and after they have entered they cannot come clean for fear of being deported.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Do you have a basis for that theory, any facts to support it ???
    The basis is my belief that most immigrants are good people just trying to make a living. I don't have any facts to support it, thus my qualification "I think." That's really the best any of us can do as controlled experiments on this level are impossible.
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Are you postulating that if we have UNLIMITED legal immigration, that the resulting abundance of legal workers will so saturate the job market that wages will become so distressed that Illegal undocumented workers will no longer see the U.S, as the land of easy jobs ??
    No, I think you are.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by KRamsauer
    But many cannot do so (only so many people are allowed to each year, I believe) and after they have entered they cannot come clean for fear of being deported.
    I'm not certain about this, but its my understanding that the current immigration laws require (at least in nearly all cases) that an illegal immigrant has to apply for citizenship or a greencard from OUTSIDE this country. Otherwise he needs to get an amnesty -- like the 100,000s of illlegals who got amnestied by juniors daddy in the early 90's.

    if I'm wrong on this, I hope someone can correct me.
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  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by KRamsauer

    No, I think you are.
    indeed
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  11. #31  
    I am in total agreement with both NRG and BARYE!

    I always felt the turn of Undocumented Immigrant was a term to soften the reality of their illegal actions from crossing the border and living her outside of the system and against every immigration law on the books. If I stole a stereo system would I be thief or simply a Undocumented Stereo Owner with the legal rights to own the stereo if I got it home without getting caught? Would my actions be accountable to the law?

    I am totally for immigration, but through the due process for several reasons (most of which have already been stated):

    >> National Security, do I really need to go into details on this one? In fact for the this ONE reason alone, I feel this law is valid and would get my vote.

    >>Health Care. We pay for their care out of our taxes, driving further due to hospitals closing that can’t afford fronting the money for illegal health care, high insurance rates, etc...

    FAIR estimates "there are currently between 287,000 and 363,000 children born to illegal aliens each year. In 1994, California paid for 74,987 deliveries to illegal alien mothers, at a total cost of $215.2 million (an average of $2,842 per delivery). Illegal alien mothers accounted for 36 percent of all Medi-Cal funded births in California that year."

    In a recent year in Colorado, the state's emergency Medicaid program paid an estimated $30 million in hospital and physician delivery costs for about 6,000 illegal immigrant mothers - average of $5,000 per baby. Those 6,000 births to illegal aliens represent 40% of the births paid for by Medicaid in Colorado. Those 6,000 babies immediately became U.S. citizens and qualified for full Medicaid services, with a cost yet to be tabulated.

    The federal Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA) mandates that U.S. hospitals with emergency-room services must treat anyone who requires care, including illegal aliens. Medical service for Americans in affected communities is being severely damaged as hospitals absorb more than $200 million in unreimbursed costs. Some emergency rooms have shut down because they cannot afford to stay open. Local tax-paying Americans are either denied medical care or have to wait in long lines for service as the illegals flood the facilities. In California, the losses are calculated to be about $79 million, with $74 million in Texas, $31 million in Arizona, and $6 million in New Mexico.
    http://www.theamericanresistance.com...alth_care.html

    An estimated one-third to one-half illegal aliens work off the books. It costs $200 million to provide for emergency health care for illegal aliens in the Border States annually. California with over three million illegals paid $79 million, BUT four of their major LA hospitals bankrupted and shut their doors in 2004. Texas with 1.5 million illegal aliens paid $74 million in hospital care. Who is Texas? You, the taxpayer, that’s who! Because you, in your state, pay commensurate medical care according to your illegal alien population. Georgia ran a $63 million deficit for 64,000 unpaid doctor visits to their Grady Health Care system in 2002. In the same year, Georgia taxpayers paid $27 million for 11,188 anchor baby hospital births. Georgia taxpayers paid a whopping $242 million for educating illegal alien kids in 2003. What is it in your state?
    http://www.newswithviews.com/Wooldridge/frosty2.htm
    >> Violent Crimes. Across the nation, it averages that 30% of all local and federal prisoners are illegal immigrants, many of which are in for violent crimes, i.e. murder, physical assault, rape, etc....

    Police commanders may not want to discuss, much less respond to, the illegal-alien crisis, but its magnitude for law enforcement is startling. Some examples:

    • In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

    • A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the 20,000-strong 18th Street Gang in southern California is illegal; police officers say the proportion is actually much greater. The bloody gang collaborates with the Mexican Mafia, the dominant force in California prisons, on complex drug-distribution schemes, extortion, and drive-by assassinations, and commits an assault or robbery every day in L.A. County. The gang has grown dramatically over the last two decades by recruiting recently arrived youngsters, most of them illegal, from Central America and Mexico.

    • The leadership of the Columbia Lil’ Cycos gang, which uses murder and racketeering to control the drug market around L.A.’s MacArthur Park, was about 60 percent illegal in 2002, says former assistant U.S. attorney Luis Li. Francisco Martinez, a Mexican Mafia member and an illegal alien, controlled the gang from prison, while serving time for felonious reentry following deportation.

    ................

    in 2000, for example, nearly 30 percent of federal prisoners were foreign-born. The agency couldn’t find enough pro bono attorneys to represent such an army of criminal aliens (who have extensive due-process rights in contesting deportation) and so would have to request delay after delay. Or enough immigration judges would not be available. In 1997, the INS simply had no record of a whopping 36 percent of foreign-born inmates who had been released from federal and four state prisons without any review of their deportability. They included 1,198 aggravated felons, 80 of whom were soon re-arrested for new crimes.
    http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_...gal_alien.html

    When an alien criminal gets caught for rape, murder or drug distribution, you pay $1.6 billion annually in prison costs to house, feed and clothe those filling 30 percent of our federal and state prisons
    >> Education.

    While these massive budget deficits cannot be attributed to any single source, the enormous impact of large-scale illegal immigration cannot be ignored. The total K-12 school expenditure for illegal immigrants costs the states nearly $12 billion annually, and when the children born here to illegal aliens are added, the costs more than double to $28.6 billion.

    .................

    In Texas, the $3.9 billion spent annually educating the children of illegal immigrants could:

    Cover more than the $2.3 billion shortfall identified by the Texas Federation for Teachers for such things as textbooks and pension contributions.
    Make Texas’ salaries for teachers more competitive by national standards, thereby reducing costly attrition, and recruit the 5,000 new teachers needed each year.

    In California, the $7.7 billion spent annually educating the children of illegal immigrants—nearly 13% of the overall 2004–5 education budget—could: ........

    In New York, the $3.1 billion spent annually educating the children of illegal immigrants could: ..........

    In Illinois, the $2 billion spent annually educating the children of illegal immigrants could: .................

    ....................

    http://www.alipac.us/modules.php?nam...rticle&sid=469

    These are just a few areas of challenges we face with illegal immigrants.......PLEASE NOTE I am talking about ALL ILLEGAL Immigrants, not just from Mexico. But due our porous border, statistically a vast majority are from there. This is not racist, it is not discrimination. It is simply bringing those who want to be in our country and those who want to enjoy the opportunities our country provides accountable to our country and actually a legal part of supporting the systems and services that all Americans have an opportunity to take advantage of, ie. health care, education, transportation, law enforcement, etc...
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    I am in total agreement with both NRG and BARYE!
    I think we should all save any open documents, and shut down our computers --

    because the rapture is, no doubt, imminent !!!


    ....on a more serious level Hobbes, those crime statistics are chilling -- and presumbly they are not including in those numbers crimes committed by the legal children of the undocumented -- 2nd generation gang bangers etc. -- who in my observation are an even greater problem.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by mediasi
    I have, in my life, lived in to specific areas of the country over populated by illegal immigrants. One was a city in Arkansas (inundated with illegal immigrants from Mexico), and the other, where I live now, Miami.

    They can get a job, a driver's license and birth children to become American citizens. So, why can't they just go through the legalities of becoming "legal?"

    We already have a survival law here - if they can make the waters and hit land without getting caught, they're in.

    Unfortunately, illegal immigration DOES effect taxes and economy. The majority of illegal immigrants get benefits - totally free health care (yep - no status, no money, free care). Since they don't have an SS# or credit reporting agency number, it won't affect them at all if there are bills they don't pay.

    What I dislike the most, however, is, that though I was born and raised in the US, I can't special order a meal - because I don't speak Spanish. I can't get what I want (nor find what I want in a store) because finding a worker who speaks English is a rarity.

    There are children here who know not one word of English by the time they reach kindergarten. Which means more money has to be spent teaching them, and means other children in the area cannot communicate with "the girl two doors down."

    In most areas like this educational standards are lower because of a language barrier.

    Pamela
    I totally agree with the language barrier. When do your spanish lessons start?
    visor deluxe->clie n760->treo 300->treo 600->treo 650 -> treo 700p -> treo 755p
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  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Illegal aliens cause more of a problem than you know. I come to this conclusion by the way you remarked. They are not paying their taxes!! Maybe sales tax and that is about it. But yet they use our schools, hospitals, public services, etc.. Plus not to mention they also effect wages.
    Are we all at one time, illegal immigrants to this country (may not be you but your older relatives escaping the horrors of war, etc. trying to find peace and better life), maybe we should give back to the local Indian tribes what they own before the white man took over.
  15. #35  
    If it is jobs you are worrying about, then you should be worried about the much larger job threat of off-shoring middle class jobs.

    Each year US companies off-shore high paying jobs in the manufacturing, IT and Airline industries, just to name a few.

    While I don't know of anyone complaining about not getting a below minimum wage job, I know of many who are in direct threat of loosing their $40k to $100k a year job due to off-shoring.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by DHAnderson
    If it is jobs you are worrying about, then you should be worried about the much larger job threat of off-shoring middle class jobs.

    Each year US companies off-shore high paying jobs in the manufacturing, IT and Airline industries, just to name a few.

    While I don't know of anyone complaining about not getting a below minimum wage job, I know of many who are in direct threat of loosing their $40k to $100k a year job due to off-shoring.
    That is a whole other thread
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by DHAnderson
    If it is jobs you are worrying about, then you should be worried about the much larger job threat of off-shoring middle class jobs.

    Each year US companies off-shore high paying jobs in the manufacturing, IT and Airline industries, just to name a few.

    While I don't know of anyone complaining about not getting a below minimum wage job, I know of many who are in direct threat of loosing their $40k to $100k a year job due to off-shoring.
    Off shoring is a very real and VERY painful problem hurting many educated american workers -- but the problem of undocumented workers is different in its effect.

    Their abundant availability in any particular niche of the economy (i.e. farming, construction, resturants etc.) effectively so diminishes the wages that employers need to pay and the conditions under which workers will need to work, that the poor who formerly could earn enough to live on those wages are not any longer able to. (or the employer knows that the illegal will not be as disgruntled at being exploited as an american would be).

    Those hurt are the least able to creatively change jobs, they are the least equipped to cope with the increased competion for low skill work.

    In my area (Wash. DC) almost all resturant support jobs, low skill construction, and office cleaning work (to name 3 easy examples) have effectively become owned by undocumented hispanic laborers. Many of these were jobs that had previously been held by legal immigrants and black americans who hadn't other work alternatives.

    In the Washington area, young urban black unemployment is SIGNIFICANTLY greater than the area's average.

    And because the republican controlled congress has prevented the minumim wage from being raised in more than a decade, most americans would be unable to live off those wages anyway.

    Not everyone gets to be a doctor, lawyer, or programmer -- some of us are unlucky, and have not been able to get a good education.

    The real anology with off-shoring is that in both instances employers are leveraging the availability of cheap workers (in this case overseas), to maximize their profit at the expense of american citizens).
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  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    That is a whole other thread

    agree again !!!
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  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    agree again !!!
    Okay it is either getting really late.....or I just might start questioning my whole look on life!
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Okay it is either getting really late.....or I just might start questioning my whole look on life!

    I warned about the rapture -- you don't suppose that we were both left behind, do you ??!!!
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
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